Another DreadBall team

As I said yesterday, I’ll be posting a team a day until we’ve got all 6 up. Today we have the Mechanites.

Edit: updated version here.

Have a play with the bot-building rules, and see what you can squeeze into a team.

As with all playtesting, comment based on reading is fine, but comment based on playing is far more valuable. The proof of the pudding is on the neodurium 🙂

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71 Responses to Another DreadBall team

  1. theearthdragon says:

    My biggest concern on this team is losing WYSIWYG.

    I’m dreading the 2nd time someone decides to use them in a league and now they expect everyone to remember that 6 of their 7 starting players have 2 or parts misrepresented. This is a little different from an Orx gaining a couple abilities. This is just false advertising unfortunately as the crane legs guy is really the tank tread guy on the sheet, and the claw arm is actually a launcher, that guys launcher is actually a hammer, and the hammer on this model is a claw……MADNESS!!!

    I’m just sad to see that go. And expectedly it’s the “it’s not a big deal” folks who tend to be the worst offenders lol

    • David says:

      Most miniature games are loosing fast WYSIWYG.
      I would not buy 10-20 times the same miniature to make it possible to use every option and have WYSIWYG.

      Ok, in a sports game it should be easier. Because there is not so much equipment or other specials in the game.

    • Quirkworthy says:

      The options were based on a list I was given of what was going on the sprues, so all of the combinations should be buildable. That being the case, there is no need for any problems with WYSIWYG. If you aren’t sure about a combo, then tack it together till you’ve tried it. Once you’ve settled on something then you assemble the model properly and it’s a player like any other.

      • theearthdragon says:

        Jake, this is less of your problem and more on the player end.

        Like you said, if your fickle and want to try everything, don’t permanently glue your guys together. That unfortunately isn’t how it’s gonna go down and someone will claim its “their right” to play their glued together team in “any” game combos they want.

        It’s the players who won’t get how confusing it is, and worse, a few who do and then try to take advantage (saw it in Necromunda all the time). So this is sadly one of those YOU have nothing to do with, and now they’ll be here and we all have to hope only honorable players in the group who understand the issue play the team to minimize fielding models that actual look like what they are.

        Again, not your problem, and I’d rather bring it up early to the community so everyone can gameplan on how to police it a little better.

  2. Josh says:

    2 words – magnetize everything… lol…

    maybe Mantic has planned for this an the arms, heads, and legs/torsos are either already suitable for small magnets or are designed to be slide into place and stay there.. not saying it’s going to be 100% perfect at this scale, but it’s possible they planned this out…

    also, magnets on robots actually will work really well.. well, until they all stick together at the center of the pitch with the ball that you already magnetized to stick to models bases… and start creeping across the board to each other when you aren’t looking… lol…

  3. John McLeish says:

    Well, as a quick thought experiment:
    Cheapest possible player:
    Jack Move 4, Spd 5+, Str 5+, Skill 5+, Arm 4+
    Steady, with 1(or 2) of (Skill 4+, safe pair of hands) and 1 of (Shove, gotcha, piledriver)
    All for 8 points. Seems good. Probably too good for less than a Zee.

    Good Striker:
    Striker Move 6, Spd 3+, Str 5+, Skill 3+, Arm 5+
    Fragile, Long Arms, Safe Pair of Hands
    For 15 points. So with 2 of those and 5 of the jacks you would have 30 points for a Guard, or dice, coaches etc. Then you can have the 2 awesome strikers score all the points while the jacks block players and can throw even fumbled passes to the strikers with good odds at catching.

    • John McLeish says:

      Actually, those strikers are better than the old Judwan, yet cost the same. Better skill, (now) better speed, no misdirect or pacifist but with safe pair of hands at the cost of fragile… And you can take some guards to keep them safe if you want.

    • Josh says:

      Spd 3? where did you get that… and doing my math on this I get a 17 pt Striker… Base 2 + Bird Legs for Move 6, Duck & Weave 6 pts = 8, + Body C Str 5 1 pt = 9, + Radar Head for Skill 3+, Spd 4+, Fragile 3 pts = 12, + 3 pts for Launcher Arm to get Long Arms = 15, + 2 pts for Glove Arm for A Safe Pair of Hands = 17…

      yes?… and as for the Jack… a Mv 4, Spd 5, Str 5, Skill 4+ model (even with safe pair of hands or Gotcha)… not mobile, not tough, not fast… just can put threats on stuff… it is a neat idea to have a few cheap models, but a team of 5 of them.. I dunno.. but I guess it is time to playtest! playtest! playtest!!

      • John McLeish says:

        Monowheel not bird legs. The jacks job is entirely making it hard/impossible for the opponent to move around and score or to tie up guards and keep the strikers moving. I said 5 just to have a full roster, you could trade 2 in for a 16 point guard and still have heaps of points for a defensive coach, coaching dice etc.

  4. Lamanzer says:

    Hello 🙂

    Jack: M=4 / St=3+ / Sk=5+ / Sp=5+ / Ar=4+ …. Gotcha! Steady, Alert => 10mc
    Striker M=5 / St=5+ / Sk=4+ / Sp=4+ / Ar=5+ …. Steady, safe pair of hand, Grissled => 15Mc
    Striker M=6 / St=5+ / Sk=4+ / Sp=4+ / Ar=5+ …. Duck & wave, safe pair of hand, grissled => 17Mc
    Guard: M=5 / St=3+ / sk= 5+/ Sp = 5+ / Ar=4+ … Steady, Grizzled, Gotcha! => 16mc

    3 jacks
    1+1 Striker (one of each)
    2 Guards
    1Dice
    => 100Mc

    Seems to be very powerfull 😦

    I have not optimised Guard and Strikers.
    Jacks are Broken to defend strike zones

    • Quirkworthy says:

      Give it a try on the board and let us know how you get on 🙂

    • Lamanzer says:

      First game against Brokkr.
      First turn: Brokkrs score 2 and injure a Jack for 2 turns.
      Second turn: 2 Gotcha assists = two kills (Jack and Strikers) + 1pt strike (One Guard ejected 1 turn for a nasty Sucker Punch on the Jack)
      Third turn: Brokkr try to play more conservative: keep the ball and slam. One Mech striker injures for 3 turns.
      Fourth turn: Brokkr Jack injured for 3 turns (another nasty sucker punch – No ejection)
      Fifth turn, Last brokkr striker score for 2.
      Sixth turn: Brokkr Striker injured for 1 turns. No one can throw the ball for Brokkrs … landslide….

      Ok, Brokkrs are very poor Team, but they were rolled over without any problem.

      Second Game against Asterians:
      First Turn: Asterians strike for 3 and ejected a Guard for 4 turns!
      Second turn: 2 kills (Jack and Strikers) + score 2 pts
      Third turn: Asterian Strike another 3pts strike and eject a Mech striker 1 turn
      Fourth turn: Mechs inflict 2 injuries (3 turns, 2 turns), Strike for 1 pt
      Fifth turn: 4 Asterians left.. they will try to landslide: Dirty trick on the last defender… 2 dices: missed…. The Guard suckers punch the Jack to clear the 4 pts striker zone: Defender Pushed and Asterian Guard ejected 2 turns. 2 dices for the striker to score, miss….
      Sixth turn: 2 Asterians killed… 1left on the Pitch… Asterian coach forfeit, Jaded.

      Yes, it’s possible with Asterians, but what is the price to pay? Even with less good slam rolls, it will be painfull for them. 5 Gotcha! / Strenght 3+ against fragile is a nasty trick.

      Third Game agaisnt Z’Zor:
      14 turns, 7-4 for Mechs.
      Z’zor Guard was controled Quickly with 2 Gotcha!
      No casualties for both sides
      z’zor were just unable to move the ball enough against a good defensive scheme.

      It was late and comments were not realy revelant. But for the 4 guys, “powerlessness” is the word.

  5. Stu says:

    I like the ideas that went in to this team, some good stuff.
    Also wondering about balance mind.. my initial reaction was that some of the costs are too low.
    That said, I don’t think balance within DB is near the mark right now in general..

  6. Lamanzer says:

    ok 🙂
    Any given Sunday… :p

  7. theearthdragon says:

    when flexibility is given like this, it’s always best to err’ on parts being too expensive, not too cheap.

    Something to keep in mind.

  8. Josh says:

    I like how the points and abilities that are given (with Locomotion, Chassis, and Heads) kinda of overlap so to really tailor your model you end up paying extra for stuff you are going to over ride with another part… very interesting way to keep from being “too inexpensive” for the most part… I do wonder about # of possible Special Abilities .. you don’t tend to see models starting Leagues with 3 good upgrades like Duck & Weave, A Safe Pair of Hands, and Alert or Gotcha!, Steady, and Can’t Feel a Thing… but these are programmable robots.. so I guess tailor away!!!

    • theearthdragon says:

      I can agree with it shouldn’t be a surprise that you have 2-4 skill models, but they should 15-20mc players. Currently, you can make combos with a pair of skills, human numbers, specialist, and they cost you 12mc. So it’s having a Human guard or striker and getting a skill for 1…….madness.

      If there was countered in league play somehow like “These players don’t rank up” or something to where you always just had to buy new bots to try and evolve your team, that might be an angle I could accept and understand one-off play was gonna favor them, but I just don’t see enough, or much of any, downside for this team at the moment.

    • theearthdragon says:

      getting skills at a cost of 1mc….i’ll learn to proofread one of these days

  9. 4rmless says:

    Overpowered build after 30 minute brainstorm and 4 hours play testing:

    3x Guard – 13 points
    Quad Legs, Body C, Tank, Wrecking Ball, Hammer
    4/3/5/5/4
    Steady, Gotcha, Pile-Driver

    2x Striker – 15 points
    Bird Legs, Body C, Radar, Glove, Claw
    6/5/4/3/5
    Duck & Weave, Fragile, SPOH

    2x Jack – 7 points
    Quad Legs, Body A, Radar, Claw, Hand
    4/4/4/3/4
    Steady, Fragile

    1x Card
    1x Coaching Dice

    =99 points

    The Guards are slow, but so efficient (2 points cheaper than Nameless Hard Guards at -1 Movement, -1 Speed and swap Can’t Feel a Thing for Gotcha and Pile Driver or same cost as Forge Fathers at -1 Skill and gain Gotcha and Pile Driver!). Gotcha and Pile Driver with Strength 3 is silly.

    The Strikers are expensive, but they have all the right stats, Fragile sucks, but Duck & Weave reduces the pain. Safe Pair of Hands makes them great receivers, 3+ skill lets them score.

    The Jacks are just making up the numbers, but they’re quite effective. 2 points less than Corporation for -1 Movement, +1 Skill and gain Steady and Fragile. Fair trade in my book, the skill 3+ makes them excellent for delivering the ball to the Strikers. They die a lot, we didn’t test in a league situation, but they’re so cheap to re-buy so that should be fine.

    If you’re worried about that much fragile, swap the Radar for Quad Eye on the Jacks.

    The low movement looks bad, but generally doesn’t matter, jacks are only support or ball collectors and guards are generally either charging something or sitting on it’s head, Strikers do all the running.

    Getting more cards or dice is the way forward, use dice to save fragile players and cards to score fast.

    I suspect from our testing that the above team is at least as good as Nameless and Rebs starting teams.

    It isn’t clear, but if you can make multiple builds of each role, it probably gets better in a league as you can have a range of players to buy to fill holes and more possible starting line ups. I’d make a Jack with Tactics Upgrade and Grab and a Guard with Monowheel and Motion Focus.

    • theearthdragon says:

      The theme right now is Skill 3 is “no big deal”. That just couldn’t be farther from the truth. You go from “Man I hope I don’t lose my turn” with a skill 5 guy trying to pick up a ball to getting an action as the standard with the skill 3. Scoring potential shifts so radically because of this, skill 3 has to really be limited and kept in check. I actually haven’t played in a league since Season 4 came out, and our database is now gone, but I have the sneaking suspicion that those frogmen on the rebs are more then likely a touch to much. We just don’t have any compiled data to prove that.

      • 4rmless says:

        Agreed, frogmen scare me. Easier than I first worried to KO though, and the guards and jacks aren’t amazing.

        I should have included the fact that we played 9 games and the above team won 7, 4 by landslide. Each game against a different team. The passing game is surreal, nothing like playing with any other teams.

        • Josh says:

          And you didn’t find the Fragile Strikers too easy to take out? Which teams did you play against? What were the average Rush #’s for the game? I would imagine throwing a Threat Hex or 2 on those Strikers, then clobbering them with a Hulk, Teraton Guard, Orx, or Nameless or Z’zor Guard till they stopped short circuiting? then again, if you can go first, score 4 points, and then have one Striker left on Rush 3 you could get a 3 pointer and win before you opponent can take out the 2nd Striker… it would seem like a longer game would benefit the “Stronger/Tougher” team.. but maybe as you said, the Skill is too good =p that’s why we playtest!

        • 4rmless says:

          Josh, can’t seem to reply to your comment directly. If you’ve played with Asterians much, you’ll know that Fragile is often not too much of an issue. With guards that effective and 4 players with Skill 3+ you can score most turns. Duck and Weave is also a help. I specifically stayed clear of Long Arms to make landslides easier, and it payed off.

          Games went as follows:

          Corp 1 – Win 7 – Rush 5
          Judwan – Win 5 – Rush 12 (all KO’ed!)
          Marauders – Win 7 – Rush 7 (both strikers KO’ed)
          Teratons – Lose 3 – Rush 14 (many KOs)
          Rebs – Win 7 – Rush 6 (Rebs rolled very poorly)
          Veer-Myn – Win 7 – didn’t record the rush (doh)
          Nameless – Win 2 – Rush 14 (surprisingly little damage)
          Asterians – Lose 7 – Rush 6 (carnage, many players sent off or killed)
          Corp 2 – Win 5 – Rush 14 (lone Jack carried the team)

        • John McLeish says:

          4armless – Dude, your jacks are 11 points. The hand and claw are 2 points each, not free.

        • John McLeish says:

          Sorry, my bad, missed the ‘freebie clause’

  10. Lubomirvaic says:

    I think that an easy fix for these issues is to raise the base cost of the player types to 4/2/4 for G/J/S and that should solve some of the over powered complaints right out the gate. Those players would then cost a bit more and you would be unable to field such a team (those players above would be 97 points without cards/dice).

    • 4rmless says:

      I couldn’t disagree more.

      That probably takes them so far in the other direction that they’re unplayable.

      It isn’t the cost of any individual ability that allows you to make overpowered players, it’s the combination of several. Jake is relinquishing control of balance here by letting us min/max ourselves.

      It’s always really hard to build a points system that doesn’t do this, and I can see some effort has been made to prevent it here by carefully grouping various skills and buffs and omitting a few things that would be really powerful.

      I think the guards are probably ok, but the combination of really cheap skill 3 jacks and really potent skill 3 strikers might be rather good. I won’t say too good at this point.

      The Rebs strikers are also powerful, but not backed up by such a supporting cast.

      I think if the consensus is that the current rule set is imbalanced, the best course of action would be to rearrange or restrict access to skill 3+.

      As an aside, I do think the choice of abilities is really thematic, though why no Driller?

      • Josh says:

        If the 3+ skill is too good, then yeah, either a slight bump in cost (3/1/3 ? 2/1/3? ) or change 3+ skill cost to limit it.. I agree with you that the combination of mixed attributes is actually really good and an interesting way to limit some of the OP options.. but I think this team definitely is set up for potentially being unbalanced… I’m also surprised by the lack of Guard & Striker only teams so far.. but maybe it’s because that cheaper Jack (whether built for defense or as expendable offense) is just too good to pass up at 7 or 8 points each…

        • 4rmless says:

          Those were my thoughts, at 7 points you can have a skill 3 Steady player, makes fetching the ball and getting it to a striker so easy. They’re also fine at scoring themselves.

  11. Quirkworthy says:

    Thanks guys! It’s great to see lots of games being played and reported. These guys clearly need to be tweaked a little. I’ll post up a v2 later today.

    • 4rmless says:

      FWIW, the option of a workable Jack under 8 points is actually really interesting for these guys, so please leave it somehow. I think it’s just the 3+ skill that might need restricting.

      Possible overpowered items: Radar, Wrecking Ball & Cranehead (could leave Grab and Ram but remove these so it costs both arms for 3+ Strength/Gotcha/Pile-Driver)

      Possible underpowered items (in case you want to adjust): Body D, Air Cannon, Tactics Upgrade. It may be that the latter 2 would have to be bundled with something else, as they might be too cheap at 1 point.

      I also think that Body B is totally irrelevant, I and two friends talked through 20+ builds and never put one together that needed Body B. Quadeye or Radar offer 4+ Speed more effectively every time. Sometimes there are multiple ways to get the same player, and Body B could be used, but it isn’t required. You could consider making it cost 4, be Jack only and bundling it with Tactics Upgrade or Air Cannon.

      The bodies would benefit from names rather than letters too.

      Top of my wish list for this team is clarity on how many builds you can have on your roster, whether you can create new builds when adding players in a league and so on. I think limiting it to 4 builds, chosen at team creation is the easiest option and matches up with no other team having more than 4 player types.

      • Quirkworthy says:

        An interesting thought about limiting the number of builds. Of course, the initial idea was to provide the flexibility, though having infinite flexibility at the start (and then locking yourself in) isn’t such a bad idea.

        What does anyone else think to the idea of limited player versions, set by you at the start of the team’s life (and potentially different for each incarnation of this team)?

        • The Enforcer says:

          What I would do is limiting the builds to one for each role (but you aren’t obligated to do the three of them). For example, I decide that my team will be one Striker build and one Guard build, and then I decide that the rooster will be 4 Strikers and 3 Guards (the number of initial players should be a number between 6 and 10 in my opinion), and the rest of the mc will be spent in a card. Now I have a initial profile, and from now on I can upgrade my team like any other team (I can’t have more than 8 Strikers and 6 Guards, etc) and the builds have to be the same as my initial rooster always. And sorry for my bad english!

        • Daron says:

          Given that you have less than two weeks for at-large community feedback (not your fault), I think a menu of pre-built models would be preferable. Playtesting four new team concepts in under 14 days is hard enough without making one of the teams have each player be a Swiss army knife.

        • Rob Uccello says:

          I think limiting the numbers of builds or a set quantity of any Role is contrary to the idea of the team. You probably need to have a rule that your final team must have at least one ball-handler, and the starting team must be at least six players. For Leagues, it should be stated that only arrangements at the start of the league are allowed later in the season.

        • theearthdragon says:

          @Rob – it might be contrary to “the idea”, but it wasn’t a sound, balanced idea in the first place. Therefore, something has to budge. Whether it’s “This team can’t purchase cards” kind of quid-pro-quo since NO OTHER TEAM CAN DO WHAT THEY CAN so why can they do everything that all others can or “The team can only have 2 builds per position” or “a maximum of 5 builds” or something to where they have the flexibility, but it’s cap in the same way Marauders can’t just buy a Goblin Jack.

        • theearthdragon says:

          I meant infinite number of goblin jacks

  12. 4rmless says:

    If the intention was to have the option to build each player individually, that would be fine, but probably needs to be explicit. It does mean you might see some really large rosters. I would probably make most players different as it opens more lines of play and more starting lineups.

    • Josh says:

      This is one of the things I’ve been trying to experiment with as far as team building… it is much easier to build a striker, a guard, and a jack, then take multiples.. but I also found a few builds where I had enough points for 1 more “unique” model and I’d hate to penalize people that want to play with the builds … you could (depending on the sprue contents) end up with a shortage of certain bitz too.. which would be frustrating… I would prefer to let people be as creative as they want and if you want 6 unique builds, and feel like that is the best way to use your Mechanites, I think that is appealing… I don’t think most people will go that way.. but then again, identifying the models might be easier (instead of 4th jack with WXYZ parts, you’d have the wrecking ball jack, the ram jack, the radar jack)… so, my personal vote is to not limit # of builds as it’s one of the most appealing parts of this team… (also eagerly awaiting Kovossian Mutant rules too BTW!)

  13. Rob Uccello says:

    I played a game of Koris vs Mechanites with my son last night (I was Koris, he was Mechanites). It was a very balanced game, but I suspect a lot of it was due to terrible dice luck for me. He spent all 100 points on building 5 robots. From memory: his Guard was 22 points with Grizzled, Gotcha, Steady, Can’t Feel a Thing and a Strength of 3+; his 3 Jacks were 20 points and had Running Interference, Long Arms, Alert and a Strength of 3+; his 18 point Striker had a Safe Pair of Hands, Fragile, Grizzled, Long Arms and a Skill of 3+. It was brutal every time I got hit, even by a Jack, and his Running Interferences were always Rush-ending. One time I managed to take his Striker off the pitch, and another time I got the Guard off, and he felt the lack of them, but he put together a very strong team that he loved playing. They felt almost too good from my side of the table. (He won the game with a 2 point lead on the final Rush).

    • theearthdragon says:

      It’s just alot of skill that would take any other team a guy who cost 10 or so more mc to even make (and time to rank him up, and if he dies, he’s much more expensive to keep him on the roster).

      They need to not be allowed to have cards and/or coaching dice, limited to 2 builds per position, a reduced roster size, can’t rank up…..some sort of draw back to the “build whatever you want and you’re players are better then any other teams” rule set we are currently looking at.

      • Josh says:

        Can you legally take less than 6 players? I know none of the other teams have fewer than 6… are you required to set them all up on the pitch at the start of the game as well? or could you deploy only 4 models and save 2 (say 2 squishy ones) for later in the game? Would requiring the Mechanites to bring at least 6 players to the Game help reduce them maxing out 5 ridiculous players? or is it enough of a disadvantage having fewer models (note I don’t think it is, as I have won games with 5, 4, or even 3 players left on the pitch as long as they were doing their job and scoring quickly!).. I honestly don’t think limiting their cards or dice is an answer.. that’s against the trend for every other team.. I can see the limit of 2 builds per position.. but again, if you start making 3 different builds per position, you are running out of mc quickly or making very, very cheap builds.. in Leagues I guess it is where it might be an issue as you’ve mentioned earlier in theory.. and I don’t think handcuffing the Mechanite Coach with a bunch of restrictions and exemptions is the way to go.. I think finding the balance of costs, parts, and upgrades is… plus, I’m pretty sure Jake already said he’s going to update these guys shortly.. so we can see how drastically they change.

        • Rob Uccello says:

          In a league, you have to be able to field a smaller number of players, in case of multiple fatalities that you can’t afford to save – although it should put you at enough of a disadvantage to gain you some free agents. I’m pretty sure you can choose to start with fewer players on the pitch, but 6 is the most you can have.

          For balancing a Mechanite (and I assume Mutants) team, requiring the team to have six players seems reasonable. It can still allow for some ungodly powerful builds, but it will at least force the points to be spread out. Anything beyond that really cuts down on the premise of the team, being able to make it whatever you want. I think it should be noted that in a League, the builds a player has as his/her starting team should be immutable, I would even go as far as to say that they can only add duplicates of existing models as the season goes on (if they want to add more players or replace dead ones). As they accrue skills, they have a lot of potential to be literally unbeatable.

  14. theearthdragon says:

    In general, why should Mechanites be SO special that they are able to break the mold to where progression isn’t just “double” what you start with.

    This is where I think they are getting way too much flexibility at firesale prices. The Sphyr can’t ever get 5 guards because they start with 2. Koris can’t ever get more then 2 strikers.

    Why should a Jackless Mechanite team as a starting roster be able to get around this by adding cheap support players in later when players start getting creamed? Hahaha…..everytime I think about these guys or someone makes a post it’s just something they are getting a huge advantage on.

    Good luck Jake…….this is going to be impossible to get even 95% right, and super difficult to get 80%+ right lol.

    • Josh says:

      You make a good point about leagues… so that isn’t too difficult to implement… I was talking more about if limiting starting rosters variations was unfair… this is a team that will possible play (and be recruited) very differently in a one-off game vs a league… each one off game is almost like an exhibition match for them where you want to min-max them… while in a League, yeah, the initial build may have more consequences.

      So, adding League Limitations so they match up with current other team restrictions is a good idea.. and will modify some peoples’ League Team Builds appropriately.

      Now, is that just raw #s of each Role in starting roster?
      or do you think they should only be able to get copies of each starting Mechanite Build as replacments? (ie is it unfair to buy 2 cheap Jacks if you can’t afford to replace your 2 expensive jacks midway through a league or even to add 2 cheap jacks if you decide you want some expendable bench players?).

      As for getting it right, I agree this is a tough one, but it’s also a game with rules that can be Errata’d… if 3-6 months after Season 5 is released Mechanites are clearly OP then Season 6 (or 7?) can Nerf them… not ideal, but if things are really out of whack, it’s an option..

      • theearthdragon says:

        And like I said earlier, any “nerfing” to Mechanites is going to be met with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. When now “your” build is made obsolete (whether true or perceived) and you glued them in that way because it was OP’d at the time, those people are gonna cry about it and explain why it was their mad skills and strategy that won the league and it had nothing to do with imbalance.

        There are so many moving parts with this team, I’m of the opinion they never should have taken a team this route. It’s just too late now. The lesson here is “Cool” idea doesn’t equate to “Good” idea.

        • Josh says:

          I think all Nerfing is met with internet-rage regardless … and technically it isn’t too late… Jake said he had till the end of the month… so still time to SAVE the MECHANITES! and cries of #5 is ALIVE!!! (want those on bumper stickers right next to a Maximum Overdrive Movie sticker)

        • theearthdragon says:

          I meant it was too late to not take a team in this loose leaf direction.

  15. Josh says:

    This is more League Theory than Mechanite theory ( I want to call them Mechandrites BTW.. not sure why).. but aren’t having expensive basic players a natural limit to the power of teams in a League as it is expensive to replace dead ones or get new ones? Or does their generally improved survivability due to increased stats and special abilities tend to offset that? I suppose it can go both ways… early deaths and losses can hurt an expensive (per model) team.. while a few good wins with little damage to the team and a lot of XP to key players can make them that more unbeatable… but is that really different for the Mechanites vs any other team with one or two expensive or key players (Hulk, Z’zor Guard, Reb Striker, etc)… ?

    • theearthdragon says:

      Right now, the safety net is a little TOO good. You can quickly get to a major disadvantage by ranking up players as that adds 5mc to your TV. So you rank up 4 players after a pair of wins and add another player at, say 15mc, and now your opponents are getting 35mc to spend on MVPs and Free Agents before a game, while getting 3d6 additional winnings after the game.

      Now reverse this. Someone has a Zzor guard killed and it dropped their TV to 83mc, while you have a 135mc, and they are getting 52mc in funds for the next match and 5d6 additional winnings no matter what after the match.

      Long story short, if you lose expensive players, it’s not hard to replace them after they are gone for only a match, while often doing just fine since the average FA is worth more then 10mc in TV yet that is all you are paying for them.

      This is the primary reason I have a problem with 4 (positive) skill Mechanites coming out of the gate. For a Human Striker or Guard to have 4 skills, they have an mc value of 30, while these guys with similar stats are coming up with combos that are only 16 or so. Eventually, players are going to find just the right combos that give you superior players at a much better bargain against their TV, and have no restrictions (at this point) as to how to expand their team to be able to fill in their holes in anyway they want.

      Now go to what I was saying earlier about losing your high value players. You smash a few players and, if available, they could very well “order in” cheaper players that more naturally counter the teams in their current league. This is just so clearly over the top, I’m really wanting to see Jake’s thoughts on who this is gonna be mitigated. And hopefully it’s not a “We’ll wait until 2.0” or “Let’s wait until some leagues play out” type answer 😉

  16. Lamanzer says:

    Create an highly cutomisable team is a good concept, a very good one! But it’s a Pandora box…
    Competitive player will create devastating Team, and I think it’s not what you want Jake.

    Flexibility must have a cost. This team should be more expensive than an average team.

    For example:
    In my Opinion: Gotcha! is a game breaker at this cost (3).

  17. theearthdragon says:

    I feel I need to post something a bit more positive as to what was done right:

    -Having to buy 2 arms at a minimum cost of 4. This ensures every player Costs at least 8mc (With Specialists at 10). And this player would be: Jack 4/5/5/4 Steady, ASPOH. As a note to this, you can drop the Str to 4 for the cost of 1 (total 9).

    -Guards and Strikers are pricier then Jacks.

    -Tactics upgrades are a good idea. I think Grizzled needs to get the axe though. That’s a real nominal cost to add to some of your players, in particular souped up guards and fragile strikers. I think it needs to stay an “elite” skill that isn’t easily thrown around.

    -Mv 6 legs still start at spd 5+. Good call

    -The Gotcha skill should be available to this team with all the hook/whip/tentacle type arms you could build on one. Very natural fit.

    -Tying Skill 3+ to fragile is smart to keep that a little in check. I still think Skill 3 is over the top, but it is being balanced in a way.

    So I understand there is some countermeasures being made and appreciate the ones in place, this is just so layered with possible issues it’s gonna be hell to nail um all down.

    • Josh says:

      Only caveat is if you are buying an ability or arms that aren’t an upgrade, no cost…

      so you could have a Move 4, Str 5, Speed 5, Skill 4+, Steady Jack for 6 pts… (buy Hand & Claw, but you only pay 2 pts total).. so if you need bodies to apply Threats or just stand around defending your Strike Zones…

      And this is also a bit more theoretical… but as far as team choices go.. I know there are still people using Forge Fathers because they like ’em.. and I know there are people that aren’t using the “best teams” because they are happy with their mid-level teams… so yeah, maybe in Tournament Play, if we find Mechanites winning every tourney, then something can be done.. but for most players, in most Leagues or One-off games.. having one team that “could” be better than others if someone puts in the effort to figure it out, build it, and play it properly is okay with me. Maybe I’m in the minority, but again, I look at it as a game… not every football game is fair, not every soccer match is fair, not every baseball game is fair.. I think as long as the community and the designers do as good a job as they can, I’m happy with it. my 2 cents as I wait for updates and work on speed paiting Deadman Davitz, my Hulk, the Crystallan MVP, and M’zei Kein Tsudochan MVP =p

      • theearthdragon says:

        *Groans*…….yeah……I felt like my last foray on that list made everything TOO pricey. I thought there were ways to keep costs down a little more.

        So it IS possible to make Jacks that cost 6. And just as I thought things were starting to look more sensible then I thought…..it was only because I was now forgetting things.

        • 4rmless says:

          Played 6 more games last night won 5/6 landslide, the other 1 by 4.

          Some of you are focusing on high cost super players, and while that’s fun, I think it’s probably not as big of an issue as you think.

          The problem I see with this team is as follows:

          Jack (0), Quad Legs (2), Body A (2), Radar (3), Claw (0), Hand (0).
          4/4/4/3/4
          Steady, Fragile

          That’s a total 7 points!

          I’m not even sure it’s worth having strikers. The last 3 games we played we used 3 x 13 point guards with gotcha, pile driver, steady, str 3+, 4 of these jacks, 2 cards and 2 dice.

          One of those games was against Nameless.

          That statline is so unfair when it’s on the cheapest player in the game.

          This makes me very worried about the Koris list too, but at least you can’t have 2 cards and 2 dice with top class guards.

          The idea that you could actually add great strikers later in a league just makes it foolish.

          I’ll wait to see Jake’s version 2, but I’ve some ideas for restricting this sort of foolishness.

        • John McLeish says:

          Claw and hand are 2 points each dude. Stop cheating! Lol, joking. But seriously, this is also a likely problem, who will be making sure the math adds up? People make mistakes after all…

        • John McLeish says:

          Sorry, my bad, missed the ‘freebie clause’

          This list needs a do-over.

      • theearthdragon says:

        Okay, that is a lousy reason to not balance a game. “Some people like playing the weak teams”. That doesn’t mean you make a team knowing it will blow the others out. Hardly anyone is actually playing Forge Fathers, and if they are, most of them are either fielding them like Brokkrs, or at least giving them all the same skills as Brokkrs.

        Making a team broken because a handful doesn’t care is not acceptable in any stretch and is just lazy. It takes one tweet or forum post to blow the whole “they’re rewarded for figuring it out” theory because they just played the OP flavor of the month. I just can’t agree with that on any level, in particular not at this stage when we should be scrutinizing and not shrugging our shoulders. It isn’t good for the game in the long run.

  18. craig johnson says:

    Due to the potential for power builds some ideas could be one upgrade at price, next upgrade 2x cost, 3rd 3x etc, other ideas could be a possibility of malfunctions where it is riskier with more upgrades you take and the third being a power supply issue whereby each upgrade drains so much of the mechs power supply

  19. skarfang says:

    Whilst I admit I haven’t had chance to playtest the mechs 1 thing did occur to me. Wouldn’t it be easier to have to tables per section of the robot you make, a basic and advanced table. All techs could choose to be made at basic level but with an option to use 2 from the advanced tables (1 from 1 table and 1 from another). The tables at the basic level could just be stat creation whilst the advanced version would dictate the role and abilities of the mech.
    Basic table for locomotion could just be 2 types of legs mono wheel (move 6, speed 5+) and armoured (move 5, speed 5+, steady) say. They could give a base stat for creation whilst the advanced table would then contain the other options and elaborate further on dictated roles. Just do Te same with the other tables so that at a basic level you get a sub par team but once upgrades take place you have decent utility players that fill certain roles effectively. Yet no one mech would be considered overpowered as they won’t be filled with skills galore.
    This sort of option would’ve production of the team easier as the options for a starting team wouldn’t be so vast. This way would also allow for player advancement within a league to not get out of hand.

    I hope that wall of text makes sense and like I said I know I haven’t actually playtested the current rules atm but they do seem a little strong as they stand. Hopefully I will get a game in soon ☺

  20. John McLeish says:

    Perhaps the direction of this team could be pointed another way. What if each position had 3 variations? Cheap, medium and expensive, they could all be balanced more easily and you cater to multiple play styles and generally you wont get more than 3 expensive players in a team, they have to take *something* to fill the roster. Should be much easier to balance. I would throw in a ‘team must have 6+ players’ clause though, to limit silliness.

  21. 4rmless says:

    OK, I’ve typed up a revised version of this and would like to share it. Am I OK to link to the Google doc here Jake? If not, drop me an email and I’ll send it to you. This is after a fair few hours of testing (see my comments above) and seems fair, though still strong, to me.

  22. Don Squires says:

    So just finished up the playtest game of these guys vs. Trontek. I built my mech team as folows.
    3 Jacks M4 Sp.5 Str.4 Sk.5 Safe hands, Gotcha, Alert, Steady. 10 points each Total 30
    1 Striker M6 Sp.4 Str.5 Sk.4 Safe hands, Gotcha 14 points
    1 Striker M6 Sp.4 Str.5 Sk.3 Safe hands, Gotcha, Fragile. 14 points
    1 Guard M5 Sp.5 Str.3 Sk.5 Steady, Gotcha, Alert. 14 points
    1 Guard M5 Sp. 5 Str. 3 Sk.5 Can’t feel, Gotcha, Alert, Grizzled. 21 points
    1 Coaching die 6 points. Team total 99 points.

    I figured I’d use the jacks as defense to block the three point zone, while the guards did their thing, and the strikers scored. I started the striker with fragile in reserve. My 21 point guard was awesome early on as he knocked someone off the pitch in each of my first 4 rushes, including killing a jack outright. I scored a 3 pointer early to set the tone. Despite all that Trontek refused to roll over and die, scoring 2 pointers and keeping the score close despite playing most of the game without 6 players on the pitch. The score was never in Trontek’s favor, but a few times they did pull it back to 0! In the end I scored a 4 point strike and watched as Trontek tried to answer in their last rush. They did manage to clear my blocker and set up the 4 point shot, but missed.
    Mechanites win! 4 – 0.

    So it wasn’t a blow out. Trontek did keep pace for most of the game and could have forced overtime if not for a missed shot in the last rush. The more expensive guard was really good early, but got bogged down later in the game. However, with both Grizzled and CFAT, he was never in any danger of getting knocked off the pitch. In fact, he was only ever knocked down once!

    Bear in mind this is only one interation of the mechs and maybe someone smarter or more cunning than myself could come up with a more abusive team build. I still think all the access to Gotcha isn’t good. My whole team had it! I agree with most that there should be a 6 player minimum imposed. I also worry about these guys in a league. Already starting with all these advancements makes it easier to get other ones that are needed later. A slight points increase, (perhaps upping the cost of the initial Guard and Striker role from 2 to 3), and a 6 player minimum should put these guys at just about right in my humble opinion.

    All in all, after the playtest my thinking changed from these guys are too good, to they are just a tad over.

    • Josh says:

      How did you give the Strikers Gotcha! I don’t think there is a build for that..

      course, that frees up 2-3 more points for other stuff likely.. unless I’m missing a build option for the strikers..

      • Josh says:

        And no option for Alert on Guards either… again, this just frees up a few points for other skills.. but the lack of Alert or 360 Vision on Guards is important, and the lack of Gotcha! on Strikers is probably pretty important too as far as enemies trying to move away to get the ball or perform some Slams!

  23. mattadlard says:

    The option of what the mechs get and the possibility to improve in a league could make these great and very powerful. Though could see that mechs have only so much space inside for add-ons and that things like armour taking up space that would in a less armoured mech be taken up with better tech.

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