After some discussion on the original thread and another game myself last night, I’ve made a few small changes to the Zees. Much of this is slight wording changes and clarifications for specific instances which have been brought up here – so the Beta’s doing its job 😉
The more dramatic change is that I’m limiting the range of passing off the blame to 3 hexes. This makes a bit more visual sense and mitigates probably the major abuse of this which is a permanent camp on the entry hex.
We’ve had a couple of highly entertaining sounding games reported and hopefully you guys will be able to get some more in soon. It’s always nice to hear that they’re working!
Please post any new comments on the Zees to this thread.
With the new section 2 of It wasn’t me, do you now randomly determine who is sent off for sneaking and then pass it off to another player within 3 hexes or does it work as before – don’t flip, just choose any Zee?
You do it as you would for a human team, but the Zee can then potentially pass off the blame.
Although this makes sense in the game .. this has the effect of adding more ZEE dice rolls when their very problem was having too many. 😦
At what point do you pick the zee within the hex limit? At the start of the action? When the foul is called? Or at the end of the action? When the foul would be resolved? For example ive got 7 zees on already and run two more on which zee is used to measure the 3 hex from?
As above, you randomly determine which Zee would be sent off (as per a human team sneaking) then the selected Zee can pass it off to another one within 3 hexes.
Interesting question. It’s all part of resolving the Ref check, so pass the blame on when the check is made.
Can I just check I’ve got the interactions between some of the foul rules and ‘It wasn’t me’ down?
Start of the Zee rush. There are 10 Zees on the pitch. 1st action token is played to run a zee (1) next to the ref and distract. The opposing coach calls foul: Sneak. The result of the distract could either be:
a) Sent off automatically for the rest of the game with no save
b) Normal Ref check against the distracting Zee (1) without the Eye in the Sky
c) Ref check against Zee (1) without the Eye in the Sky, Ref only rolls dice against fouls involving Zee (1)
d) Ref only rolls dice against Zee (1)
In all cases, the Zee coach can assign the outcome of the distract to another Zee within 3 hexes of Zee (1). Zee (2) is exactly 3 hexes away and is assigned the result (lets say result ‘c’). A ref check with 1 dice (for the ref) is rolled against Zee (2). Zee (1)’s action is now over, and a ref check is rolled for the Sneak foul. This would be randomly determined, and unless it was on Zee (2), the Ref would not add her dice – even if it was on Zee (2), he could assign it back to Zee (1) so she would not add her dice. Or would it not matter which Zee was randomly determined, as the Ref is concentrating on (2) and he is one of a team with more than 6 players on the pitch, and he is still within 7 hexes of her, so she still adds her dice?
Zee (2) then uses Runaround and moves 5 hexes directly away from the Ref, ending up at least 8 hexes away. No additional Foul is called, as this isn’t a played action token. The Zee’s opponent can now call Sneak fouls on the remaining 4 action tokens actions that the Zee coach plays this rush, but they will all be on a single dice for the Eye in the Sky, as the Ref is concentrating on Zee (2) and he is more than 7 hexes away. These 4 actions could also be used for other fouls, like sucker punches or stomps or stalls, but the Ref will only add her dice if Zee (2) does them within 7 hexes of her and the opponent cannot only call one foul per token, so would need to choose which he is calling first.
Does that cover the interaction between Sneak and Distract with ‘It wasn’t me’ factored in?
That sounds right, though I need to double check the wording (mind you, you’ve got it). There is a question in my mind about whether you should be able to pass off this particular foul onto someone else. Probably not because you’re standing there arguing. hard to get that muddled up.
The complexity here is due to the Distract the Ref check being part of the action itself instead of being a separate thing, so that’s my fault. Mind you, I wasn’t expecting the Zee at the time. Nobody expects the Zee…
When the Ref “ignores the rest of the team” this only matters for her dice. They can have fouls called as normal (and the Zees can blame each other as normal for them), but it will just be the Eye that rolls.
Thanks – So in effect, the Zees could use a run (or even a free run) to distract the ref early in each turn, and then only have to worry about 1 dice ref checks for the rest of the rush?
Yes. I suggested this as the ZEE player’s stock first action on the forums, but I would combine two of them to add a threat hex and increase the chance of doubling.
Hey Jake, played a beta game tonight of zees vs teratons tonight, and it was a lot of fun. Zees ended up scoring 7 during rush 10 but they really did get very lucky with pickup rolls. Neither player felt completely out of play, although as the zees player I felt like there was nothing I could do to hurt the teratons. I am wondering if the defensive side of teleport is a little too strong? On the other hand, I didn’t waste my time trying to harm them, and instead just went straight scoring, which caused me to win. The zees are definitely a team I thought was a lot of fun as their coach. Those rushes where you get 3 coaching dice really rock!
The Teratons are supposed to be very tough, so that sounds like it was working. I have, however, seen Zees take down Teratons and even get them off the pitch for a turn or two. It doesn’t happen lots, but it’s possible and it’s one of the things you can use that Rush’s dice for (if you get them). Like you say though, ignoring that and plying the ball may be a better way forward. Being lucky with that can win you the game. You just have to not count your little body bags at the end…
I have a really hard time understanding paragraph 1 of the rule “It Wasn’t Me”. As I understand it, the only way a Team Action Token can be used to commit more than one foul at a time is with the Sneak foul and doing something else (any action becomes a foul then) or when one player is blocking the entry hex (any action also becomes a foul then). Are there other situations were this rule would apply?
You could be sneaking, stalling and stomping all at the same time as an example. Your opponent has to pick the one he is calling and that affects how the fouling zee is chosen.. who can then pass the foul off to another within 3 hexes. Whichever one finally gets the blame can then roll to reduce the sentence.
Matt’s right here Erick. It’s the Sneak, Stall +1 that is the most naughty they can be at once.
Don’t see how this minor change is going to have any real affect on STALL when the ZEEs can simply use RUNAROUND to keep a willing sacrifice nearby.
For consistency, if DISTRACT THE REF is going to be immune to IT WASN’T ME, shouldn’t TAKE A DIVE & DIRTY TRICKS be also ??
Also quick Q about DISTRACT THE REF: “The Distracting player must move adjacent to the Ref using the normal rules, and then attempt to Distract them while the Ref tries to Remain Calm.” and although I know “Distract the Ref is a type of Run or Sprint.” isn’t it normal for a JACK to only be able to move 1-HEX whilst performing another action like THROW or SLAM whereas STRIKERS & GUARDS get the full RUN, or are FOULS different in this respect ??
And again by limiting the passing off ability of IT WASN’T ME you’ve made it an even less enticing ability for the a lone player, unless like some have suggested the Free Agent table entry is 2x ZEE JACKS ??
Just had a thought about ‘Doc Ramshackle’s Cheap-O res-r-ections’
it would suck for a zee to loose any starting abilities!
If you’ve got 4mc and a dead Zee, you can afford a new one – I wouldn’t bother to Rez unless one had some really useful abilities (at which point you could pay for the full res if you can afford it)…
True enough, good point
Hi Jake, two questions about the run mechanics for these guys… So, if you make one Zee do a run action, you can move another Zee for free (though it counts against the number of actions you can do with that player).
1. Lets say I catch the ball on a double. I get a free run or throw. I chose my free run (it doesn’t count against player actions). Because I had a free run, do I get to move another Zee a) for free b) as per normal – it counts against their player actions or C) you don’t get to move another Zee after another Zee’s free run?
2. A slam/throw/steal can contain a run. If I slam/throw/steal with my Zee (and run as part of it), can I have a free run with another Zee?
I played a game with them last night and won, they were really enjoyable to play. I operated under the assumptions of 1 = b and 2 = no.
1) it only applies to runs bought with a team action token, so ‘c’.
2) Jacks can’t do any of those things and Run. As Zees are all jack’s, if you buy a run, all you get is a run. Therefore 2 normal runs only (which could include a distract the ref).
Can you show me your source for your answer to 1?
Also, you are quite incorrect about your answer to 2. Jacks can “run” and perform a slam/throw/steal. The limitation is on how far they can run – 1 hex for jacks.
Jake I’d really appreciate the official verdict for this?
1) First line of Runaround is “a single TEAM ACTION TOKEN can buy a Run Action for two players with this ability instead of the normal one” – Caps for emphasis of the important part in relation to this – Runaround only applies when using a team action token to pay for a run action.
2) I think you need to re-read the rules for those actions – “a jack can MOVE up to one hex before he makes a Slam, turning for free if he chooses to. He cannot Dash as part of this action, though he may have to Evade.” – Caps for emphasis again- Jacks do not run up to one hex (a game term) as part of these actions, they simply move one hex before doing it. It is at no point described as a Run…
That’s interesting since the last sentence reads: ” In effect, if you ever need to Run with a player in a Zee team you get a Free Runwith another player”
This does sound more like “whenever you run by any means…”
Another one for Jake, I’d say.
Played 8 rushes with the Zee’s last night (match was called off due to a screaming baby)
Really hectic and fun to use though.
Think my opponent was a little overwhelmed!
Love that team!
It all seems to make sense. Restricting the pass the blame is a good change.
Played Zee vs. 29ers and the 29ers had a close 2:0 win.
Just some verification / questions about timing of Runaround and Ref. Check.
– A Zee does a run (using an action token) to pick-up the ball.
– Picking-up the ball ends my run action.
– So before picking the ball up I
a, can move another player due to Runaround
b, have to resolve the Ref check (let´s say I have 7 players on field)
– then I pick-up the ball
Is that right?
I cannot move my second Zee after the pick-up becasue my run action is over.
The Ref-check has to be after the run but before pick-up because the run is the action that triggers the foul.
If the player doubles the pick-up and uses a free run action I cannot call a foul because the action is free.
But I can move a second player due to Runaround. I can only do this after the free run is resolved because free actions have to be resolved immediately.
I think I got this right.
Jake, please confirm or correct.
There´s already a lot of text describing the Zee´s abilities but maybe adding a timing section could be helpful.
Again, great and fun team!
Would buy it as it is.
1) Pick up the ball (determine if you get a free action)
2) Roll ref check.
3) Complete free action from pick up.
4) Complete run from runaround
3) & 4) don’t generate additional ref checks. Note if you fail to pick up the ball, you complete 2) and the rush ends.
Ah, re-read the rules. Pick-up is part of the move action, so 1+2 makes sense.
Not sure about 3+4. The free action can be a Throw with a Jack. This does not include a run. So, the run action (incl. Pick-up) is definately over, and a new action begun that doesn´t include run. So why would I be able to use runaround?
Because you already paid for it – full sequence would look a bit like this:
1) Pay team action token for a run action (Runaway means this pays for 2 players to run).
2) Player (a) runs and moves onto the square with the ball.
3) Player (a) rolls to pick up the ball and doubles the pick up.
4) Player (a)’s run action is over.
5) Resolve any Ref check called against the Zee team during this action.
6) Player (a) gets a free run action or a Throw action. If he chooses run, this won’t trigger ‘Runaround’ as the run wasn’t bought with a team action token.
7) Player (a)’s free action is over (no foul can be called during this action)
8) Player (b) now takes a run action bought from ‘Runaround’ in step 1). Other steps involved have just simply interrupted this sequence.
8) still seems fine from my reading of it, as (b) still takes his action after (a)’s action and any free actions it generates – its possible that the intention of the rules is that the Runaround action must be used immediately after the first run, so doubling the pick up means that either:
1) (a) gets a free run or throw.
2) (b) gets a free run.
But you can’t have both, in which case I think the wording should be adjusted to make this clearer.
Thanks for you posting, Henry. I’m really curious about Jakes original intention.
There’s so much that can happen between spending the token and executing the runaround movement. Just imagine the free action being interupted by RI, etc.
I think the sencence: “They must take their actions one after the other.” needs to be more precise.
Have been rotating through the Season 3 teams, playing Trontek versus the new teams to get a baseline feel. Nameless and Teratons seem reasonable and, frankly, lost to better scoring.
Zees have an interesting flavor but…the number of special rules/situations makes them a little off-putting.
Thought monkey business would be overpowered but with their rubbish Skill and being limited to jacks, I can see a need. Question arises about coaching dice from fan checks (assumption is they don’t go away after each rush—-but now I have to track 2 different blue coaching dice types?)
Runaround also matches a frenetic monkey-like feel.
It Wasn’t Me (IWM), seems needlessly complicated. Instead of it doing 3 things, it might be better to pick one of the things it does now and ditch the other 2 from the rules altogether. Consider:
Give the monkeys a save from being sent off for Foul!
Allow only a single foul to be called per action token
Allow their coach to nominate any on-pitch player to take the foul
Trying to do all 3 (either as a single multi-part rule or as 3 separate rules) just seems like too much to track. Start throwing in advancement abilities in a league and that will only compound.
Although it might be annoying to track different coloured dice, it isn’t really any different to defensive coaches in season 2, which add coaching dice that can only be used for slambacks and dodges during that rush (and of course, the Asterian’s start with one).
I think although ‘It wasn’t me’ is pretty wordy, and seems to be doing a lot, but its actually not too bad on the pitch, as it basically just comes down to limiting the number of fouls that can be called, changing who is affected and providing a save against being sent off. It does add a fair amount of dice rolling to a game, but that combined with Monkey business is what gives the team a bit of a chaotic nature…
Once you read IWM you can boil it down to three or four sentences. I didn’t have any problem, even in my first game with them.
Anyway there’s only one Statline you have to remember, that makes it easier again 😉
Agree that only having to keep track of jacks is a plus.
The base game and 4 teams is elegant. I get that Season 2 amped up the game for more experienced coaches and Season 3 will do another take on providing more than your basic team.
There comes a point (at least for me and some of the folks I game with) where extra rules draw you out of the immersion of the game.
Was just giving feedback on IWM. Zees effectively have 5 separate rules linked to them as written (incl version 2 with the 3 hexes limit on choosing a new victim to blame for Fouls! 🙂 ). Add in league or exhibition match skills and so forth and it may just bog the old girl down. YMMV.
Unfortunately, i dont have anyone to play with yet but I’ve been following closely.
For those of you who are doing the testing, has anyone tried Zee vs Zee games? Not sure, but if a normal game is borderline bogged down by foul rolls every action, it seems that the mirror match would be almost painful to play or watch.
What if, to simplify things, the It Wasn’t Me rule were changed to something like:
-Foul Calls may be diverted to another player within 3 hexes
-One can only call a sneak foul against a Zee team once at the end of each of their rushes IF they have more than six players on the field at that time.
No saves, no limit on other foul calls. This way the Zee won’t just keep all of their players on the field all game. AND they retain some protection against fouls by shirking them onto other players. If you feel that’s not enough foul defense, you could either make the range larger and/or give them a flat -1 reduction to all ref check results.
What do you think?
Saw a couple of ideas (one of ’em mine) on the Mantic forums.
One was to just make Zees immune to Sneak as a Foul!
Mine was to just grant Zees the ability to always deduct one dice from all ref checks against them.
Either they all wore identically numbered jerseys; tampered with the eye-in-the-sky-ware; or performed some other deviltry to jiggery-pokery the ref’s judgment.
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