This is a list of the current versions of the abilities that were not printed in the core rules (generally stuff for wave 2 models). This doesn’t include the new rules for the Asterians and Forge Fathers.
There are a couple of modifications left to be finalised and if there are any problems with the wording or whatever then we can still make changes. So, if you have any comments, now’s the time 🙂
I have some questions about Indirect: so a Plague Boomer can choose each turn if he’s shooting the granade launcher using the Indirect rule or a normal Shooting action? if the Boomer is Shooting “normally” then the granade does not scatter from the target cube? (following what is written on the Frag rule)
Yes and yes.
This makes sense for a grenade launcher but does the same apply to mortars? I’m not sure how the goblin guntrack would shoot ‘normally’ into the square next to it.
Indirect weapons that have either CSW or Vehicle rules are too big to use anything but Indirect.
January 6, 2014 at 11:01 am
Indirect weapons that have either CSW or Vehicle rules are too big to use anything but Indirect.”
Is this official ruling? I’m guessing it was just missed out of your “Unprinted Abilities’ FAQ from 19/12/13.
Yes, this is official.
Is a CSW affected if the Loader is Pinned but the Gunner is still Alert? Vice-versa?
Can a CSW carry two items? Can it use either freely, or only the one carried by the Gunner?
Where the weapon is a separate model, is it scattered separately to the Gunner and Loader? Is it affected by scatter at all?
If CSW crew are scattered into separate cubes, are they both still considered to be Size 2?
Could a CSW be mounted on a single base (40mm?) and split only when required to by scatter?
Long Reload: the first sentence could be misleading because the weapon could fire every round if it gained an additional action from some source, like a Command action. (It’s not a rule that the weapon may be used only once every other round: that’s just how it’s likely to turn out, all other things being equal.)
Thanks for these, Jake. Regarding vehicle results, they need some explanations…
6: Immobilised. The vehicle can no longer move. If it has not got a turret or other means to move the weapons then they may only shoot in a straight line from their current position.
What does “a straight line from their current position” actually mean?
7: Fire! The vehicle catches fire.
What does does catching fire actually mean? Is it like “It Burns”?
Also, what determines if a vehicle has a turret?
I know there may be some common-sense examples but things like walkers and such could be argued to have enough movement to spin their torsos around to shoot in any direction maybe?
Further, all models in deadzone have 360 degree LOS the immobilised rule suggests that this is not the case for vehicles so maybe more needs to be added to the vehicles section to deal with that?
Finally, How are extra crew treated? i’m thinking specifically of the Stunt Gun Track with its extra dude carrying the ammo. Are they just lumped in as part of the vehicle, is that model really necessary?
Thanks guys, some excellent comments. This second wave of abilities includes most of the really fiddly ones so it’s useful to have this feedback.
I’ve got some changes to Indirect too, so I’ll sort these out all at once.
Am confused about CSW. Why can’t an enemy target the loader? There may be instances when a LOS can’t be drawn to the shooter or a shot has to pass through the loader to hit the shooter. This also means a loader could wander off to pick up items and not be shot at. I really don’t see the need for this part of the rule.
And why can’t the model fire if the loader is not in the same square? She can if the loader is dead though. It might be best just to say that if a loader is not in B2B contact then the weapon gains Long Reload & Slow.
•Firstly the rules for defender shields are still absent, were they put out somewhere else and I’ve missed them or have you not yet finalised them?
•Secondly I feel quite a bit more explanation is needed for the CSWs.
1.) Aren’t the long reload and slow abilities mentioned under crew losses always in effect, even when the loader is still alive (as implied by the long reload ability’s description)? If so this should be mentioned before the sub heading about crew losses, as how it currently reads implies these abilities are only in effect once the loader is dead.
2.) There needs to be more explanation of how exactly an enemy targets the CSW, “An enemy cannot target the loader or weapon separately.” suggests that you must always target the gunner, if that is the case then I think this should be explicitly stated. This would raise the question as to why the loader cannot be targeted if the enemy so wished.
3.) It’s not clear exactly how a separate gun model functions (when one exists): is it an immobile token miniature that needs to be in contact with the rest of the CSW to be able to move or fire and is completely useless when unattended? Currently the rules suggest a gun can act exactly like any other member of the crew, “Both crew members (and the weapon if it is a separate model) are included on a single stat card and are assumed to have identical stats.” which would mean that it would be able to move and even fight combats by itself!
Feel free to tell me I’m being dumb but all these things seem unclear as things stand.
All of which is why I dislike weapon teams so much. Nothing but trouble…
Yeah I was really confused as well after reading the CSW rules. I would probably try to avoid using any weapon teams if those were the rules I was left with. A host of unclear situations obviously slows the game down, and is uncharacteristic of Deadzone. It feels like these rules are somewhat out-of-place.
I think we could just treat the two crew members as separate, equal models and the weapon being held as an item in the hands of either of them. The weapon requires 1 crew member and 1 other model with a shoot characteristic to fire. This supporting model must be together with the firer, and gets marked as activated in the same way as does a model supporting a Blaze Away. (I feel like this would add minimally to the current rule set, and not need many caveats for irregular situations.)
I’m guessing that the idea of letting the whole weapon team be a single, atomic unit has already been decided against in favor of a more skirmish-y approach. While treating the crew members separately complicates the rules a bit, I’m honestly in favor of it for this game.
Weapon teams always cause faff. After reading through all these comments I have, however, thought of another approach to explaining what they do which might be clearer. So thank you 🙂
I think it would’ve been cool if the loader had his own weapon outside of the Heavy Weapon used by the main Gunner. Even if it was just a pistol, or whatever the HQ-sent “Noob” Trooper was armed with. Idea being that when they DO get separated (usually by some sort of “move” effect like Frag/Blast/Knockback, or one getting Suppressed, and the other not and “legging it”) the loader can maybe pop off a few shots of his or her own while trying to regroup with the Gunner.
I do like the idea of perhaps having a “relief loader” option as per Torkel’s suggestion above.
My main reason for the Loader potentially acting as basic Trooper is because of Warpath’s Corporation Marine Heavy Weapons Team, I just think it’s a waste to have modelled a team with a Gunner on the Heavy Weapon, and his Loader clearly armed with a laser rifle and binnoculars that R.A.W. currently doesn’t get any use other than a thematic prop.
This has already gone to print. The specific example you list isn’t used in DZ 😉
I think Non-Combatants shouldn’t be able to add +1 to an ally’s fight roll if they are in the same cube either.
Seems in keeping with the ability.
The +1 for friends is more of an indication that the opponent doesn’t know where to look and is distracted than that they are taking an active part in the fight, so I’d let it stand as is.
Fair point, i suppose with wrath knocking around you just dont know if that judwan stood behind you is going to stand and pray or kung fu you into next week!
“Kung fo you into next week” – lol!
So in effect the loader is a damage and ability marker? I think if the rules are clear that you always replace the gunner with the loader in cases where the gunner bites it then you can remove the targeting restriction.
Also, how about making the roll to determine a catastrophic vehicle effect and the damage a single table? Or make the roll a Survive roll (x) where the goal is to roll the number of damage points? The current system has two rolls in it and none of them are consistent with the mechanics of the rest of the game
the CSW rules are a bit problematic.
how about changing it so, that the CSW has inherently slow and long reload, but ignored as long as the loader is in base contact? that also would mean a gunner could shoot while the loader tries to get into base contact again.
also, activating the 2 crew members individually when separated feels awkward to me. how about you still activate both with one activation, but the loader may only do a move action and has to move as close to the gunner as possible? I stress the “may”, as in optional, because the better choice may be to get the gunner to the loader like for example the gunner ends up in an open cube while the loader is in a cube with cover. the idea is, that the team has to try to stick together at all times.
and for the question with the items to pick up, I would just give CSW beasts as well or just exempt them from picking up stuff, only allowing items to be bought before the game, since gun and ammo are already enough to carry around.
also I would amend “An enemy cannot target the loader or weapon separately.” to “An enemy cannot target the weapon separately. furthermore the enemy cannot target the loader separately, as long as he is in base contact with the loader.” that makes sure that the loader only becomes a valid target (but DOES become one) when they are separated. otherwise, that would create some very awkward possibilities to use a separated loader as some kind of invulnerable scout.
Thanks very much for this. I love it when you offer free downloads of new rules for your games. I get thrills seeing what you have come up with. 🙂
“Pass the kleenex vicar”?
Hello Jake. Thanks again for all your great work. I would say weapon teams are jsut too fiddly here: my brain started to hurt reading it, I am afraid. Why not simply make them count as a single model with (2) “injuries” like a vehicle? I think allowing grenades to scatter them, etc. will make people not want to bother with them.
Speaking of which, the vehicle rules look find only I can’t really appreciate calling their damage points “injuries”. Is damage to a vehicle called an “injury” in the Queen’s English. Here in the New World it sounds very odd to refer to damaeg to a solid inanimate object as an injury, except maybe to ephemeral things like financial interests. Anyway that’s jsut a semantic/stylistic concern.
And sorry for all the typos!
If the weapon team is so problematic, why not simplify their rule. They could be treated as one model for all aspect of the game, except they always gain +1 dice if they fight, and give them an additional damage level. First damage can go to the gunner or the loader (with penalities for shooting only if it’s on the gunner), the second damage go to the other one, and the third damage kill them both.
Quick one. Vehicles. The rules states that no vehicle can be affected by blast or frag. I assume this implies the moving models part of those rules. But I doesnt mention about the potential damage from frags.
As it reads, vehicles of all types are immune to frag damage. Which is just odd in my book.
That line is ok if read in context with the rest of the sentence, but I can see where some might take it literally.
I think Boris is on to something but I would go even simpler. How about making the team a single model for all purposes, but giving them tough to represent the two crew, and brutal to give them an additional die in CC to represent two figures fighting. The team is either killed, or it isn’t by single attacks. No fuss, no muss, no bookkeeping.
This is generally the case in larger wargames, where weapon teams are treated as single, atomic units. But I think I like the fact that each crew member is an individual for a skirmish game like this.
actually you wouldn’t even need to add brutal, could just remove support and explain it away as it evens out due to 2 crew. Same effect but without two rules.
DZ is a skirmish game so the models should be individual’s and can do anything 2 normal models could do, which means no extra rules needed to operate the team, keep it simple. All what’s needed is to say that if the team members are not in B2B for the purpose of the CSW rule, then the weapon gets the Slow and Long Reload ability – simple.
My thoughts exactly.
Maybe pop a line in that says if the weapon is a seperate model then it cannot move or fire unless it is in b2b with one or both of the crew
personally i think i’d model any seperate weapons on a 40mm base with the gunner
Nice rule update,
was playing a corner to corner game yesterday, i vehicle shot a massive frag at me, cos no line of sight is needed (birdseye view) im rebels and was cramped up in the deployment zones, the ap1 on the massive frag made a massive difference, killing 4 models injuring 2 and pinning 5 this seemed very powerful to me, especially when i compare it to desolator and csw team thats costs the same points (12) and would never cause that kind of damage, are the points cost of vechiles right ?
Has anyone else had problems with the vehicles being overpowered, or was this a freak lucky dice bad dice game ?
i also notice marauders seem to be equipped for all situations and scenerio,s. for the difference in points in models they get upto 3 stats increases in some cases for 2 extra points.
Yup, indirect weapons can be game-winners on turn one when they win initiative as your force is either bunched up in cover to avoid normal fire or in the open to avoid indirect shots. Maybe all indirect weapons should all be deployable so unable to shoot on the first turn. .
Frag and massive frag are op at the moment. Will there be a fix or are we going to have to go the GW route and house rule our way to game balance? Hitting 9 cubes per weapon is insanely powerful and means that you’re constantly rolling survival tests, which means you’re eventually being pinned or suppressed. 2 plague mortars and 2 grenade launchers getting 1st turn makes it nearly impossible to win.
Potentially, it’s 18 cubes, as frag / massive Frag affects all adjacent cubes on the same or higher level, and there is no distinction between diagonal or orthongonal, so the target cube, 8 on the same level and 9 on the level above. Chances are not all these will have a clear route to the target cube, but still leads to a huge area affected by the frag.
Pretty sure Frag is only on the same level
Same or higher.
Yeah, I thought that, but re-read the rules – page 69, third paragraph:
“Work out where the weapon strikes/lands and centre the effects on the explosion on that cube. Every adjacent cube on the same or higher level is affected by the Frag
as long as there is a clear route to it.”
If my research suggests that it is genuinely in need of fixing then it will get fixed.
P!at a couple of games on a 2×2 board against plague frag army and see how much fun you have when all your models are suppressed , pinned or dead by the end of the first turn.
I have, which is why I’ve changed it 😉
Is the Frag update ‘printed’ anywhere?
Not yet. Will be soon though.
Thought ‘soon’ would be here by now 😦
It’s at the printers now.
as the Nexus Psi campaign is being released to KS backers, will there be some rules updates/corrections/clarifications from you soon ?
Realistically, it’ll be after the DBX KS finishes (and I finish the last of the Mars Attacks). Because FAQ, etc are often about obscure details with complex linkages into other areas of the game it’s difficult to work through them properly when I’ve got my head focussed on two other systems. You really need to be in the zone to do it without making things worse. The NP stuff was written months ago 😉
Jake I hate to press but can you quickly tell us if control and capture in standard play are earned immediately or only when claiming victory? Makes the game hard to play withiut knowing. Thanks! Nexus Psi looks great, btw.
How does following fire work (like what does it do)
When a model with Following Fire hits with Blaze Away attack, it gains a new free Blaze Away action that can be targeted in the same cube as the first one, or any adjacent cube.
Where is this from? I can’t find this rule anywhere.
I was wondering about when do u get the point for a capture or controll, but I have a good theory that makes sense , u only obtain the points if u are on the objective and achieving the requirements for either capture or controll, as soon as your not achieving what is required for capture or controll the point are imidiatly deducted from your total VP’s , so it’s probably good to capture or controll late game