Better version. Changed Bjarg’s outfit to just do the drop armour bit, and not anything fancy once he’s arrived. That tidies things up a bit.
Mercs for Q v3
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This works much better! Getting to drop down and blast everyone in the cube is super cool. I’d like to have seen him keep glide, but I’m assuming that might mean he’d be too powerful for his points cost or something?
Also, whilst I can’t envisage many time when you’d want to, I’d prefer he have the option to just start on the field of play, should the controlling player wish. Its not like it’d be any advantage, after all you’ve paid points for his awesome flight suit, but it’d be nice to be able to start him on the filed in his normal deployment area.
That said, I think its a much better way to deal with the flight suit without any messy rules. 🙂
Well it’s not a flight suit, so it simply avoids the problem. I’m not entirely sure that his points are right with this change. Needs another look.
Good point, it makes sense that you drop him in and then have a small amount of functionality left to be able to jump about.
This reminds me of Thor and other Asgardian warriors slamming into combat via the beam of the Bifrost at the beginning of Thor 2! 🙂
Think i will miss the glide ablitiy of the flight suit, maybe it can be added to jump packs? or possibly hover?
Flight suits may turn up again on someone else. Just not Bjarg.
The Flight Suit is very cool. Less fiddly than the previous rules and allows for a very deep, sudden deployment. It also creates a concept or rule that can surely find mileage elsewhere in the future. Love it.
Is there any point Bjarg still having Scout if he doesn’t even deploy on the table as usual though? As it is, there’s theoretically a rules conflict between Scout and the Flight Suit since they both change the standard deployment rules. Unless of course he can be deployed without needing to come in from orbit, which I think would be a fine option. As brickid said, you’ve already paid for the ability – if you don’t want to use it, that’s your own loss.
A last thought for Nem-Rath – perhaps he can take a Command action as Short action? He wouldn’t be able to do it twice in a single activation, but it’d allow him to command the troops, while still moving around the field, or firing his pistol. That might capture that sense of an elite commander *and* warrior.
It’s probably worth making it clearer he can use Scout or the Drop armour.
Interesting idea for NR.
I’d like to second that “command action as a short action” idea for Nem-rath. That’s really quite cool and unique. And it certainly fits in well with his stand off-ish observer background.
Howlett seems like a beast! Same Def as the Peacekeeper, but no Discipline and Rampage. Very interesting.
I’m a bit confused that Kish can work for everyone (seems like Corporation is her favourite target and Enforcers would execute her on the spot, no?) Also a special thought behind her not having Mutant?
And the Orbital Drop doesn’t scatter, right? You “just” need a long action from your commander and a complete activation for the dropped, but in return you get him where you want and a massive blast too, right? Really nice to push of these Snipers…
Weeee, so looking forward to wave 2 and great work (as always 😉 )
Who folk work for is not finalised. Waiting for Mantic to get back on that. As far as Kish is concerned, she’s away in la-la land and if anyone realised that they could make use of her warrior dreams.
No scatter on the drop armour. I considered this, but at the same time the FF are supposed to be at the absolute cutting edge of technology, and I don’t see why that shouldn’t include a bit of accuracy here and there 😉
Watch the skies.
Ok, that explanation concerning Kish makes sense and gives her more character. Be nice and use her and then execute her 😀 To get back to the mutant (it’s no big issue but I’m just interested): doesn’t she have it because otherwise the Plague would have an advantage without extra costs (not that big advantage, unless you get a fancy agile ofc)? Oh and she reminds me of a Twi-Lek, which I think is amazing 😉
And I really like the ‘no scatter’. It just fits the FF as you described it. Must be an absolute WTF moment when a big-boned dwarf in huge armour just plumbs out of the sky like a dreadball and shatters your Reb-commander down in her death. Quite amusing
I was thinking of the lack of Mutant being more to do with the way Kish saw herself rather than what was actually happening. She is pretty much powered by will alone, so I thought it fitted better to have her unmutated.
And Bjarg’s arrival would be very cinematic 🙂
Ok thanks. The pure (altered) Willpower combined with her slightly better physis (seems her willpower also stopped her ‘initial’ mutations (no fast) and later ones) make a crazy killer, who can be used by everyone clever enough. Impressive design, which makes her an complete opposite to the other female named Plague (Simmonds). Like it a lot.
And thanks for the quick answers 😉
Love the new guys and the updates too,
Love the drop armour change, this sounds like a lot of fun! Maybe we will see a stock troop with similar armour down the line?
That would be kind of scary.
What if Nemrath was psychic? May be a bit overkill with command psychic and combat abilities but I think he’s a prime candidate for the games 2nd psychic.
Interesting thought, though there’s no particular background reason for it. He would be even more expensive.
Very true. Have you thought about swapping the command values between nemrath and the commander? Plus shouldn’t he have like a shield or some other form of protection if he’s such a high ranking badass?
Shouldn’t his card’s “Flight Suit” be renamed to “Hammerfist Drop Armour”, or vice versa? So they match the special rule following his card? I love the idea of this ‘Deep Strike’ ability. A Hammerfist Drop Armour non-merc would be hideously powerful even if made as a Rare or Specialist. Would love to see a unit pop up in Warpath… MuhuHAHAHA.
Yes it should. I spotted this 5 seconds after I posted this up. Didn’t think it was worth changing it again…
Drop armour in Warpath? You never know.
Wait…. Do you only ignore Mercs at the assigning the Commander stage of comparing Highest Command Totals? Otherwise it seems that game wise no Merc can ever “step up” to take the reigns when the actual Commander karks it. This may make sense for the likes of shifty mercs like The Helfather and The Survivor, but one faction specific ones like Dr.Simmonds, Nem-Rath and Sgt.Howlett to name a few seem like they’d at least get some contribution other than a Command Action token or two thrown in, surely? Especially with Nem-Rath’s fluff about taking over from a leader he finds lacking or Sgt Howlett chastising other Enforcers in the aftermath who didn’t do as he says…
Come to think of it, would you even hire Nem-Rath if he can’t act as your Commander, given he costs too much to realistically take alongside your standard Asterian Commander?
I think what I would like to see is Sargent Hewlett being given Tactician. This is partly because his fluff seems to indicate he is an officer, but his command stat doesn’t, and partly because he is really struggling to be different than the other really nasty beat stick of similar cost, Blane.
A Hewlett with Tactician would actually be far more interesting for the Enforcers, since that makes him another model that can command. This is significant because it would enable the Captain to do actions other than commanding every turn. Generally an Enforcer Sargent is simply too costly to use with the Commander, since he is worse than a standard enforcer in combat, but Hewlett makes up for it by also being a melee monster. A tag team of the two of em, a specialist and a trooper would make an interesting crew, and it would get even more interesting in larger games.
I have to echo the above statements about Nem-Rath, I think he really needs something to make him stand out as a unique character. I understand the “need” for the asterians to have a cheaper secondary command option, but he is currently simply an inferior Asterian Commander, which is uninspiring. I like Insane_Prophet’s idea about him being able to give orders as a sort action, thus making him a somewhat more offensive forward commander, suitable for infiltration missions etc. Psychic would make him different enough too, though he would lose the cheap command role. Plus, a lot of psi powers are similar to command abilities anyway, so there may be redundancy.
Ofcourse, if he actually CAN’T work as a commander, he really needs a special ability to say he can, otherwise he will never really be used.
Other than that, I really like the rest of the mercs. Kish and Eddak are awesome, the big orky beatstick makes for some interesting options for some factions, and I think Bjarg is probably fine if he was 18 points or so.
The armor reliant have got to be depressed over the new characters, given how much AP they’ve brought to the party.
Kish is basically a Plague Swarm (sans Fast) who’ll work for anyone. Plague already have Gen2s & Swarms, so they won’t really care, but the Rebs will appreciate her, as they lack HTH and she’s a much cheaper choice than a Teraton. AP2 & Fight 3+ mean any Enforcer/Cypher who gets charged will probably go down. Meanwhile, Enforcers & Cyphers will appreciate her Knockback – she can be held back as a defensive piece and be used to launch big enemies back out of hand-to-hand if they fail to kill their target, thus clearing ranged pieces to do what they do best. As a result, she may be the most flexible piece in this set.
Howlett is a more expensive Kish (7 more points) with a bunch of additional tricks to try and justify the added investment. Stepping down to Tough from Really Tough is a bigger drawback than it looks – pretty much every HTH creature has AP1 or better so Kish actually comes out ahead on protection in these fights, leaving Howlett’s Brawler to try and carry the load.
Eddak is unimpressive – 23 points is more than a Teraton costs. If your mission somehow favors a big, expensive Scout then there you go. Honestly, he seems meant more for narrative than points-based missions.
Radgrad is pretty horrifying. I kind of think Enforcer Burst Lasers should be AP1 (I don’t think they’re worth it thanks to Deliberate), but I didn’t expect to see an AP2 Firestorm weapon come bouncing along. He kills Cyphers on doubles and should get it on an average roll of 5d@5+ to 3d@5+. Suppress an Enforcer in cover, follow it up with another blaze away and you’re doing straight wounds. Best of all, firing is only a short action, so he can blaze away more than once a turn if he gets command actions (and as the Marauders, you should have plenty of those). He’s expensive, but can act as a wrecking ball if you keep him away from AP4 weapons.
Bjarg’s “drop for a blast with shockwave” could win games right away. If you have the first turn and are playing on configuration B, it’s possible to drop him so the blast hits every square in the set up zone except one. An above average roll on a 5d@4+ blast could pretty much put things away.
Bjarg can also be used to assassinate an enemy commander at the start of play by dropping to get a clear shot and then reactivating him through a second leader taking a command action (as Rebs & Marauders often field). Dice aren’t quite in his favor, but if you pull it off then it’s probably game over…
Eddak is massively overcosted, his stats are in the 10-15 pts model range and being immune to overwatch while walking really slowly isn’t worth that much. The others range from okay to good, they all bring something new and interesting to the table, which is more than I can say for at least half of the first wave Mercs (is there still time to drastically alter their stats???)
Oh, and count me in with the people confused over why single-faction Mercs are classed as Mercs in the first place.
Eddak is a commander and has agile, both of which are quite pricey. Agile in particular is one of the most powerful abilities in the game. Also, his basic stats are good. The stealthy bit is not where his cost comes from.
if you have any specific thoughts on the first wave of mercs then why not share them?
Who works for which faction is not yet nailed down. However, don’t let the term mercenary confuse you. Being classed as a merc is a mechanical means to restrict the availability of these unique characters and nothing more.
Eddak has 1 point of Shoot, 1 point of Command, Tough and the stealthy stuff over a Yndij Sergeant, who is 12 pts cheaper and doesn’t have any baggage regarding force selection. You can buy 2 more Agile Yndijs for the difference in points. Just saying. Maybe Agile would be worth more in, say, an Enforcers list. But not in Rebs.
It makes sense to restrict named characters, but it would also make sense for some of them to be allowed to be the Commander, especially when the Merc’s Command Total equals or beats most Leaders. It’s also extremely cost prohibitive in many cases to field a Merc and a proper Commander.
As far as the old ones, I would say that Recon, Simmonds, Helfather, Survivor and Blaine bring very little to the table in terms of new gameplay options compared to the likes of Boomer, Chovar and Nastanza. Freya doesn’t add anything to the team but has her own mini-game inside the main game and I’m not sure how I feel about that.
Wrath (and Marauder Rainmaker…) I’d prefer it if abilities that make you attack your own side stayed in Warhammer. The Marauders are sensible, disciplined soldiers, except for this one lolrandom maniac who apparently escaped from Warhammer. I get that Wrath is some sort of murderhobo and these drawbacks keep the cost down, but if Oberon can be an awesome yet reliable killing machine…
Eddak has 1 point of Shoot, 1 point of Command, Tough (4 points) and Scout (4 points) over a Yndij Sergeant, so we can then theorize that his stealthy abilities, armor piercing crossbow and superior overwatch are only costing him an additional 2 points over the Sergeant.
Maybe you don’t like him as a piece, but I can’t see where he’s overcosted? Leveling up a Yndij Sergeant to the same point would hardly be cheaper (assuming Stealth would be costed as a 2 point skill).
@Insane_Prophet, campaign skills are priced with a “best case scenario” in mind. Tough and Scout are worth 4 points on something like a Teraton, not on a Yndij. You’re also forgetting the huge secondary costs of being a Merc. Eddak doesn’t really do anything you couldn’t accomplish with a Sergeant and 2 regular Yndij, or whatever else you can get for the same point. The crossbow? I’d take a basic rifle over it any day. AP is the most overpriced ability in the game.
@ Blackfang It’s simply what those abilities would cost on any model who took them, ideal or not. Obviously a given ability will be more or less useful on individual models – but do you really think that say Sentry is only worth 4 points on an Enforcer sniper, given it practically gives them an reaction each turn on top of their own activation?
Similarly the value of Tough obviously increases the more expensive or vulnerable the model is. Tough is worth that much more on a Scout, that much more on your Commander, that much more on an 11+ model, etc, etc.
Clearly you think he’s too expensive and wouldn’t purchase him at his price, but you’ve not really explained why. Are you asserting that you’d be more likely to hire Eddak if he was 19 points *without* Tough, since Tough isn’t worth 4 points on him? Does he need a higher Command? Marksman?
What is it that makes him such a poor choice compared to a Yndij Sergeant and two Yndij Troopers in all given scenarios? Is just the number of bodies, and if so what does he need to make up that difference?
@Insane_Prophet I’ve explained why twice, you’re just not listening. There’s no reason to take Eddak in a game because whatever he can do, someone else can do better or cheaper or probably both. And for 23 pts I would expect a model to at least have some damage output (a Single Shot weapon does not count as any sort of damage output without AT LEAST Marksman to go with it). Look at what Nastanza can do in comparison, while STILL leaving you points for a regular Yndij to run around and pick up swag. Unless there is some scenario where the entire table is covered with Sentry Guns and the mission is to just walk to the other side, there’s no useful way to field Eddak.
I definitely think you’ve got a point about Eddak’s points cost.
It doesn’t matter if he’s pretty stealthy and fast, his offensive capabilities are severely lacking and he doesn’t really bring anything new to a force except a really situational silent weapon. Don’t get me wrong, I love that there’s a fricking CROSSBOW being wielded by massive hairy biped who doesn’t in anyway remind me of Chewie, but right now he’s too expensive to really have any effective use.
@ Blackfang – All you’ve said is “his stats are in the 10-15 pts model range and being immune to overwatch while walking really slowly isn’t worth that much.” and “You can buy 2 more Agile Yndijs for the difference in points.”. Asserting that you’d expect “AT LEAST Marksman” to qualify for damage output is the first suggestion you’ve made as to what you might change.
(As an aside, I don’t see how a model with a 4+ Shoot and an AP1 weapon “does not count as any sort of damage output”. That’s one of the best shoot stats in the game and a superior single shot to the gunfire from an Enforcer Trooper. So is the damage issue related to his inability to Blaze Away, despite Blaze Away being a very poor source of damage?)
Nastanza isn’t going to serve as your Team’s commander. Eddak is clearly intended to, and will only ever be worth his points if you use him as such. The models serve different purposes.. Now, again, maybe you don’t *want* to use Eddak as your team’s commander, but if that’s the case you can surely dig into the reasons for why and make suggestions as to what would solve the issue. All of your comments revolve around his offensive abilities, as if his sole purpose was as an additional gun to bring to the fight.
(I’ll fully concede that if some rule or change isn’t implemented that’ll allow Eddak and other such Command heavy Mercs to act as commanders then he’s far too expensive. At that point he’s just a sneaky scout with a Crossbow and doesn’t compare well to a model such as Project Oberon who fights harder at both range and melee, for less points)
It’s fine to say “whatever he can do, someone else can do better or cheaper or probably both” but if that’s going to lead to changes you’ll surely need to drill down into that, demonstrate it, and make suggestions as to how you’d solve the perceived issue.
I am going to agree with Insane Prophet on the point that Eddak is clearly designed to be a forward commander, not an assassin. A Commander with Scout will more than likely have a fairly significant impact in the game, simply by virtue of not having to use move actions to be in optimal command range. A model with Scout and Stealthy on the other hand has the additional advantage that, if placed right, will act as a hard deterrent for over-watching models, even without having to spend actions to enforce that. No sniper will willingly want to go into Overwatch mode with Eddak around. This means that eddak both changes the way Rebs play, by making orders available midfield rather than backfield, AND disrupts the opponent’s game plan, by making early game over-watching snipers a bad idea. Essentially a double advantage for missions where advancing quickly is key. This seems like exactly the sort of model I’d pay for if I had, for example, an Infiltration mission.
That being said, this all hinges, obviously, on the condition that these mercs have a way to actually become Commanders. Otherwise, yeah, both him and Nem-Rath are woerfully overcosted. But it seems a foregone conclusion that such a rule will be in effect. I DO think that Eddak needs to be 3/2 or 2/2 though… 3/1 is way too restrictive for a commander.
For the price, I think it largely depends on what impact a Scout leader has in the game, which can only really be determined by playtesting. I suspect that we’d at most see a reduction of a point or two, but I think we need to deffer to the play testers on that one, since it’s not easily quantifiable.
Egh. Don’t waste both of our time by basing your argument on wild assumptions. As the rules stand, Eddak can’t be a commander.
About the first set of mercs and some being classed as mercs where they maybe shouldn’t. Why not call them unique instead of merc. Its likely Doc Simmonds and Recon would be better off as in faction unique models instead of mercs
I could maybe see a rule that says any ‘mercs that can only work for one faction can be used as a commander but still cause a negative effect on the team reputation.
The fluff reason would be that your strike force’s reputation will suffer either because they will be overshadowed by this (in)famous personage or because HQ thinks they can’t get the job done and so have sent in a heavy hitter.
This way the likes of Howlett, Eddak, Radgrad etc have a little more utility and it fits with their individual backgrounds but at the same time it helps them fit within the exsisting framework f the game.
Agreed, the faction specific mercs need some way to be commanders in their respective factions. I think the above is an elegant solution.
Honestly I’m not sure it even needs to be exclusive to the Faction specific Mercs.
@Insane Prophet, The reason i specified the single faction mercs is more fluff than anything, where i can see the enforcers following howlett or the Marauders following Radgrad, its a lot less likely that say the enforcers would take commands from say, Blaine as he is not any part of their chain of command.
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