DS Pledge Manager Questions

I know that the Kickstarter backers have their pledge manager available for Dungeon Saga, and I’ve heard a few questions about the game based on this.

As I don’t know what you don’t know (and want to know to inform your purchases), I thought I’d post this up as a space for you to ask questions.

At some point soon the rules will go out to you guys again. That’s currently just waiting for some reworking of the layout. It’s silly to show you something we know needs changing, so we’re making some corrections first. So, the rules are coming.

I am planning to do a series of short articles talking about individual heroes and other models in the range as a starting point for discussing their tactics as well as their appearance. I’m just waiting for the photos.

One thing I do remember being asked about was acrylic counters. How many wound and pile of bones counters do you need?

POBs are the easier one as there are 24 in the box. The most a single adventure starts with is 20 (at present – further playtesting may tweak this slightly). That leaves a few for Skeletons to get boned before more are raised. So you need that many.

Wounds are slightly trickier to work out. The Heroes have 5 each, but in all but one case the game is over if a single Hero takes 5. So, the most they will ever need is 4 Heroes x 4 wounds = 16. However, the other side may need them too, and here’s where it gets more vague. It depends on who you are fighting as to how many wounds they may need. Normal skellies don’t use them, nor do small zombies. Zombie Trolls do, as do some of the other (non-undead) races. It also depends on what you’re playing: pre-written adventures or some of your own devising. Personally, I’d say that 20 would probably be as many as you’d ever need in all but the most insane of home-brewed madness. You could probably get away with a dozen most of the time as it’s unusual for non-Heroes that get wounded to stick around long, so there are seldom lots of wounded individuals around at a time. Wounds on Heroes tend to concentrate on one or two of them rather than spreading evenly across the group – again reducing the likely number you’d need. It’s not an exact science though and these comments are obviously based on my experience and could vary with your group, depending on your play styles. As the pirates say: not so much rules as guidelines…

If you’ve got any specific queries then please ask. I’ll either know the answer or the person to prod for one.

Oh – one final thought. I have no idea what the pledge manager actually looks like or how it works because I haven’t seen it. All I can help with is content-based questions. If it’s technical stuff about what happens when I click this then you’re better off talking to Mantic customer services direct.

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83 Responses to DS Pledge Manager Questions

  1. Jerry Kirkham says:

    Do you happen to know what is contained in the acrylic counters? I know the 2 rulers are in it, but i do not know what else. Im trying to decide if 1 set will be enough.

    • Quirkworthy says:

      I’m waiting on a reply of just that question now. I’ll let you know when I do. My guess at the moment would be that 1 set would be OK for the core box, but may not stretch to cover all your home-built options. I’ll confirm that though.

  2. Willem-Jan (Hephesto) says:

    Sorted mine out the other week. Shame the adventure books aren’t going to be printed. Understandable, but still a shame. Still, few bucks extra and I have another dragon for some random project or charity!

    Rather like the sound of character articles, should make for some fun previews and theory team crafting!

  3. Sam Palmer says:

    Very useful to know about the counters. I’ll be getting 2x resin counter upgrades now, giving me 24piles of bones and probably an excessive 32 injury counters!

    How about the other counters, such as traps or doors? There’s currently add on packs where you get 8 dungeon traps – is that enough? And an add on pack where you get 4 single doors and 1 double door – again, is that enough or do you foresee us needing multiple add on packs for these?

    • Quirkworthy says:

      Traps aren’t likely to be desperately common, and are currently not in the core adventures against Mortibris (because there isn’t a thief to help get round them). That sort of thing is all added in the Adventurer’s Companion, and so mainly relates to adventures you might be designing yourself. 8 traps should be enough unless someone makes that the theme of a level.

      The adventures in the core set and expansions use only the doors that are included in those sets – everything you need to play will come in the box. Of course, as soon as you start designing your own adventures then you may well want more doors. I know that doors were something I could have used many more of when I was writing the adventures and would be on my definite list if I was adding to the main sets with a view to building my own layouts. There is a certain amount of reusability with them because you can remove a door when it’s opened – at least, that’s the theory. I know that my dungeon maps limit themselves to the number in the box so that you could lay out the whole dungeon without running out. I do that because I am certain that people will actually play that way, even though that’s not what is intended.

      • Tyr says:

        To be fair, once youve played a scenario, youll have seen the layout anyway, so theres not really a point to hiding rooms anymore once you replay it… Is there?

        • Spamalam says:

          Well you still have to bash/magic the door open with baddies breathing down your neck, so good for the pressure as well as the hiding 🙂

        • Quirkworthy says:

          That depends on how good your memories are. If you can remember the whole layout of an adventure with 4 or more separate zones and 20 plus tiles, then you might as well lay it all out. However, most people can’t remember the details, and in DS details often matter. You might recall that there were some minions on the other side, but how many? And is that really a surprise? Was the chest nearer this door or that one? Did these two doors lead to the same room, or was it those two?

          Also, it’s kind of fun seeing the place laid out as you explore it 🙂

        • Tyr says:

          It does disrupt the game slightly though. (ie, you break the door, necromancer has to take 5 to set up the next room…). And I *do* remember that kind of stuff really well. I could set up the alpha scenarios without ever having played them (lack of minis and tiles). Really good memory for maps and stuff. 😛

        • Quirkworthy says:

          As you say, there is a brief pause while the new bit of the map is set up, so it’s a trade off. Personally, having tried it both ways I prefer the gradual reveal. It builds tension and tells a better story IMO. But it’s your game and you can play it either way. Do be aware though that showing the whole map from the start moves the balance in favour of the Heroes, in some cases quite a big way.

          Also, while the initial scenarios use half a dozen tiles, the final ones use up to 30. Remembering those precisely is rather more challenging a memory trick 🙂

  4. Drew Williams says:

    Thanks for the update Jake, always good to get news on progress, and like the others I’m looking forward to the character articles too.

    Is there anything you can tell us about how the advanced rules are shaping up? Not the rules themselves but what kind of things both yourself and mantic have highlighted for coverage.

    I’ve probably missed where you’ve discussed this previously but could you elaborate on / point me towards, how the game balances dependent on the number of players? In your playtest day you mention playing a number of games with only a pair of heroes and then one larger game at the end.

    Best,

    Drew

    • Quirkworthy says:

      The first two training scenarios are designed to be played with only 2 Heroes. The first, which teaches you the combat mechanics, has the Dwarf and Barbarian. The second, aimed at showcasing the shooting and magic, has the Elf and Wizard. Apart from these two adventures, they are all designed for a party of 4.

      The number of players is different from the number of Heroes as an individual player can (and often does) control more than one.

      I’ve been looking at ways to balance the individual scenarios with different numbers of heroes, and that’s actually very complicated. The main reason for this is that just being an extra model gives you an extra action, so even if you aren’t very skilled you can still do stuff. Conversely, if you have fewer Heroes then you may not be able to do all the things you need to simply because there are fewer actions available. Still working out how to do that simply in a way I’m convinced works.

      The advanced rules are all written and are being tested now. They include: AI rules for playing against the dungeon, suggestions for designing your own dungeons, rules for random dungeons, rules for designing your own Heroes, expanded environment rules (new locks, traps, etc), hero experience, campaigns (downtime turns plus locations), Gold, plus a bestiary of different races, and loads of cards for magic items, traps, spells, events, etc.

      I may have missed something, and I’ve thought of some more stuff that may get added.

      • Smud says:

        So how will the AI rules, random dungeons, hero experience work? 🙂 I think most of the readers are interested in that. Of course the whole advanced rules are very interesting and I would love to read through them, test them and give a lot of comments ;).
        Btw I’m happy that you started bloging again.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Rather than skimming over them in comments, I’ll look at each section in a separate post. That way I can do them a bit more justice 🙂

        • Smud says:

          I appreciete that 🙂 and hope we can read them soon. Best before end of february ;)…

        • Smud says:

          Great! Oh and I would like to know, what stats items will have, especially weapons.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Items don’t have pre-defined stats. They each do whatever is appropriate, with the rules for the effect on their card.

        • Smud says:

          Sorry, my previous comment maybe wasn’t clear enough. What I meant was that I would like to see some examples of them. Do weapons provide bonus dices, rerolls or complexer bonuses (like new attackforms, attack-movement-combinations…)?
          Oh, also what kind of equipment will be included? Waepons, shields, boots, armor, rings, amulets, maybe more?
          Sorry for borthering you with all these questions. I think this game has a lot of potential to get a great dungeoncrawler.
          My gaming group is used to play pen and paper rpgs and Descent, so we are searching for a complex game… It doesn’t have to be as complex as Descent (which by the way is missing the dungoencrwalertheme or in matter of the first edition the character development…) or a real rpg, but the base game of Dungeon Saga is way to simple in terms of character development, at least for us.
          I understand why you did it and it’s ok for the core game, but we are looking for way more flexibility in a game. So we are ambitious of every detail of the advanced rules ;).
          We also would love to playtest the advanced rules and give you a whole lot of feedback to help making the game great.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Sounds like your group will be wanting the extra rules form the Adventurer’s Companion then 🙂

          Magic items are divided into several types: weapons, armour, shields, and so on. You can only use one of each type at a time, which gives you some interesting choices if you’ve got multiple things for a slot.

          Individual items can be extra stat bumps, grant abilities, or have bespoke rules. It varies a lot.

        • Smud says:

          Indeed we want them ;). It’s good to know, that there will be a high variety of different items. While you can only use on of each kind, can you carry more than one of each kind? If not will there be a limit for carrying? Do you have to equip them as an action or will it be in addition to the normal actions, some kind of equipment phase before active phase?

          I’m looking foward to your articles about the advanced rules. 😉

      • Tazar Yoot says:

        Are there going to be prewritten campaigns that are balanced and designed for character to play as they level up? Or is that type of play going to be dedicated only for the players willing to create the homebrewed adventures?

        • Nakano says:

          The answer to my question touched this area: “Working on a simple way to let you use your own Heroes and the Adventurer’s Companion experience system with the pre-written scenarios”. Might not be balanced, but I think that’s ok. It’s hard to balance if there are many skill choices to take. The group should together plan on which direction they develop their custom heroes to maintain the “balance”. So you should be able to make your own choices which is something I at least wanted.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          @Tazar – theoretically you can take home-brew heroes in pre-written campaigns. The challenge is to balance any system of DIY heroes as they are so different. How do you compare a wizard to a thief? Both have moments when they are useless and times when they are indispensable – are they equal or is one worth more than the other? It’s very situational. Unfortunately, points systems aren’t situational at all.

          As Nakano says, you will have to do some consideration yourselves about what constitutes a balance of abilities and professions within your group of heroes.

      • Joe K. says:

        Welcome back Jake, glad to see you back answering our never-ending stream of questions. 🙂

        The $300k stretch goal was for Solo and full co-op game modes, and states there will be AI cards for both hero and necromancer roles. First question, when playing solo do we also run with a 4 character party? Second, is it still in the plans to allow us to play as the necromancer battling against an invading party of goody-two-shoes? And lastly, will the AI card mechanics be similar to Deadzone or are you generating something unique for Dungeon Saga?

        Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. You have already saved me from some disappointment of not getting enough resin bone piles/health markers in a single add-on set. I’ll be adding a second one of those, but will wait to see what else arises that I can’t do without. 😛

        Take care.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Solo would run a 4 Hero party as standard.

          I’d like to have AI to play the necro as well, but so far it’s not worked very well. The Heroes are very complicated to mode, as you can imagine. The other way round is done though, and that’s a new system,.It’s not based on the DZ one (at least, not consciously) because that had a very narrow aim, and this is much broader in use.

  5. eriochrome says:

    My main question goes to the sizes and rules associated with the tile sets. Anything on the tiles thathat is not just decoration. Black fortress is just a big image of the shadows of tiles.

    • Quirkworthy says:

      At present, the vast majority of the tiles do not have rules associated with the tiles themselves. Personally I find this tends to be too limiting in they use. However, the lava flows, lakes and rivers in the Infernal Crypts set were just too much to resist, so you have to treat them differently. Caution: hot!

      I don’t think I’ve seen the Black Fortress art. At least, not so that it registered. I may not have paid it much mind as I hadn’t got to write anything specific to go with it (and that list was plenty big enough, thanks).

  6. Brage says:

    I want to collect a lot of the resin figures, but would like to see what I buy.
    Can we please have some images of the sculpts soon. As they’re now all completed as far as I know

  7. Grumpyoldman201 says:

    Is the black fortress bundled with anything?

  8. Nakano says:

    I have finished my pledge manager, but would like to ask about the dice. Are the 10 included dice enough? In addition, are all dice really white? I think that if this is the case, the result comparison is not as user friendly as it could be. I think the player and the overlord should have their own colors included in the box instead of getting player aid dice or getting them elsewhere.

    My other question would be related to campaign mode. Can the core game (pre-written scenarios) be played in campaign mode? If yes, what follows from previous scenario to the next one (money, items and equipment, experience for character development etc.)? I personally want to play a game with progression seen (like Descent) instead of individual scenarios (like Conan I assume).

    • Tyr says:

      There is progression in the standard scenarios, but its completely linear, at least from what Ive seen. Ie, you get skill a after scenario 3, skill b after scenario 4, equipment x after 5… etc. Mightve missed something though.

      • Nakano says:

        Hmm… Maybe it’s possible to play standard scenarios with custom heroes and custom skill choices instead of linear pre-determined skills. I would really like to take advantage of Advanced rules without the requirement of making my own campaign.

    • Quirkworthy says:

      There will be 12 dice in the set, in 2 colours. No final decision on the colours yet.

      The core adventures are intended to be played as a campaign, with each carrying on from the previous one. However, they are also balanced so that you can jump in and play them as one-offs if you’d rather. To allow for both of those options, the experience and progression of the Heroes is predefined. This allows us to balance individual scenarios so that they are fun for both sides.

      So, the Heroes get better as they go through the campaign. This is predefined because we aimed to make the core game something you can just take off the shelf and get straight into playing. You don’t need to make lots of choices outside the actual adventure.

      In contrast, the Adventurer’s Companion is designed to give those who want a deeper experience the tools they need to delve further. This allows them to create their own heroes and make their own choices about what advancements to take as they gain experience. Among many other things. It’s a sand box to play in 🙂

      In essence, the ways the Heroes in the core scenarios advance is just a slightly accelerated version of the Adventurer’s Companion experience system where we have made all the decisions for you in advance. “One I made earlier”, if you ever saw Blue Peter.

      @Nakano – working on a simple way to let you use your own Heroes and the Adventurer’s Companion experience system with the pre-written scenarios for exactly that reason.

      • Nakano says:

        Thank you for the reply. I’m really looking forward to this. Sounds very promising!

      • Shane says:

        I initially pledged for the extra dice dungeon master and hero dice. Apart from quality and quantity differences (10 of each vs 6 of each*) Is there any need in buying extra dice or does a hero/villain never need to roll more than 6 dice?

        *core game each does not refer to the same dice as the add on dice

        • Quirkworthy says:

          It’s rare to roll more than 6, but it does occasionally happen. Some rolls are restricted to 6, but that is not (yet) a global rule (though I did consider it for a while). Getting more than 6 requires modifiers, magic items, potions, spells and so on. generally when someone stacks these to more than 6 it bodes serious pain for the target.

          The other thing you might want to note is that in the games I’ve played, the Hero players (if there are more than one) often get rather possessive about “their” dice, so you might want sets for different Heroes. You know how gamers are 😉

  9. airwick01570 says:

    Hi Jake, my question is will there be a facility in the advanced rules for character/ creature creation? Obviously some people will have other games with minis they Ightfield like to include in this.

    If there is going to be this ability will it be like a few preset generic characters/ creatures and match it up accordingly or a fully random generation a la D&D?

    • Quirkworthy says:

      The Adventurers’ Companion set includes full rules for creating your own Heroes and Bosses, plus rules for experience if you run campaigns. So whether it’s a halfling wizard or an orc thief, you’ll be able to make them.

      Hero creation isn’t random – its a set of choices. I’ll talk about the details in a post, later.

  10. Mathieu says:

    Hello
    Do you always have to play with 4 heroes, even with advanced rules. I will play the game with my wife and we prefer to have 1 hero per player
    Thanks

    • Quirkworthy says:

      It’s designed to play with a party of 4 heroes, as it stands. I’ve been tinkering with ways to play with different numbers, though I’ve not resolved how best to do that yet. The real issue is simply not being able to be in several places at once, plus the Heroes are all specialised (to encourage co-operation between them) and so don’t do as well in smaller groups.

      Still working on it though.

  11. Tazar Yoot says:

    The 3 minis, jester, vampire, and the assassin. Do you know will they have their own rules and mechanics tied to them or are they just re-skinned optional minis to use in place of other already existing heroes or baddies?

    • Mi7 says:

      Im also curious to hear more about this

    • Quirkworthy says:

      A mixture. I’ve not seen the final models of two of them yet. You could possibly use them as alternative models or as Heros of your own devising. The Adventurer’s Companion has rules for creating your own Heroes and there are many options which won’t fit well with the initial 4 models. More characterful miniatures will be useful for you to use in that regard, and assassin is an obvious fit here.

      I’m tempted to write something for the Skeleton Jester, though I’m not quite sure what. The Adventurer’s Companion bestiary already has a Vampire listed in it.

  12. My top 3 queries/curiosities at the moment are
    1) Is it still only 12 Necromancer cards and/or can the Necromancer swap/upgrade cards as the campaign progresses?
    2) Do large creatures occupy 4 squares (unlike the single square in DKH) and can they still squeeze in narrow spaces at a penalty?
    3) While I really really want the rules to see all the special rules I am most curious how The zombie troll works particularly how regeneration works (if undead trolls still refer are that is)

    • Quirkworthy says:

      1) A full Overlord deck has 22 cards in it. You draw a specified number for each adventure to from the draw deck for that game. This deck is also the clock that ticks down – the game ending when the Overlord goes to draw a card at the end of the Round and there isn’t one left to draw.
      2) 4 spaces, and no. That was causing problems with various layouts, and this way is just cleaner.
      3) Regeneration heals a single wound on a roll of 5 or 6 on a single dice. You roll once whenever you suffer damage from an attack, plus you roll once at the end of each Round. This means that you can’t leave wounded Trolls alone because they get better. When you attack a troll you need to concentrate and keep going to take it down before the regeneration can get it back in the fight.

      • Thank you for those answers, I really look forward to finding out more when the beta comes out the hints for mob leaders intrigues me, but I’ll wait for that. For shorter games will the deck be random or proscribed or selected for by the Necromancer? The 22 card limit makes for a maximum of 20 turns for the heroes, I guess that will make for Some frantic dashes on bigger maps! But the real thing I see is the Necromancer remiving a card (choose or random as a level up would be a challenging higher level skill)

  13. eriochrome says:

    Are the expansion campaigns also written with specific core heroes assigned for the missions?

    • Quirkworthy says:

      Yes.

      Apart from the Return of Valandor, the quest packs each contain 2 new Heroes. The adventures are designed for these two, plus a specified two of the original 4.

      Return of Valandor is different because it follows on the story from the original campaign in the core set, so continues to use those Heroes.

  14. David says:

    I must say I would have preferred a thief or the dwarf engineer instead of another fighter in the group. Someone who can enter everywhere or open chests or see traps is important in a dungeon.

    • mastertugunegb says:

      Any word on how that will work, Jake? I could see the Halfling having a Thievery (4 dice) ability like how the Elf has Shoot (4 dice), usable instead of the Dice stat to open doors or disarm traps and so forth. Though could also see Thief having abilities like how the Wizard gets Spells that use a Thievery action.

  15. eriochrome says:

    The recent update says there are 9 races and 8 professions in the advanced rules. Can you list them out? Are you including the “Good” races in the Bestiary?

    • eriochrome says:

      People also do not seem very happy in the comments section for the latest update due to the closeness of the pledge manager ending with still very limited info about what you really get in the advanced game.

      • crimsonsun says:

        Guilty of leading the Charge on that front but I’m not going to mince words mantic are really annoying me with how they are posting positive sounding meaningless posts that completely fail to address the concerns or questions of the backers and the impression given in that update pretty much says all the core of the game both advanced and basic is done, so no community play testing or feedback in its development beyond balancing/editorial or format that get picked up upon before going to print.

        Delivery is in August so that’s 6 months of which 5 at least will be needed for production so I understandably feel rather dismayed at the complete lack of Mantic even seeming to care that they’ve excluded the backers from the games main development despite saying we’d be a constant factor. In addition the failure to provide the play test rules within the duration of the pledge manager is plain bad customer service. I want to know what I’m investing in, in more detail before I pledge for more, because I don’t know if I’m going to like the game yet as the only rules I have were so basic the game play rapidly becomes boring.

        The pledge managers deadline also links in to my production time estimate which is why they need to know what’s wanted, but its impossible for use to know right now. Honestly though its the way Mantic posted updated during the campaign and since that’s really got my back up, so many posts that give hope of various things in fact so much so I don’t remember them saying an out right no to a single sensible rules/materials/development based question, instead they will always giving instead a positive spin on possibly and then saying they would go into detail/specifics in a future update.. Well that never happened. Nor did the updated rules while the campaign was running, nor has the community development. If this Kickstarter disappoints it will be the last time I give my support to the company.

        Now Kickstarter backers have always had a false sense of entitlement and a attitude of my way or the high way, but this is not where I’m coming from at all. All I want is the information that was asked for and promised at the start of the campaign, then during it, then after it and that is a detailed overview of what mechanics/rules are being included and what depth the game will have. Its not a hard request being as next month they begin production. Moreover the backers have been promised this information time and time again and instead have been given wordy lip service. We were told this game would be actually developed heavily by community feedback but that ship has sailed now for the structure and core mechanics used by the base and advanced game leaving only cosmetic systems, layouts and minor balances to be modified by community feedback though as time ticks that will become less and less a possibility.

        Let me say I’m not angry at you Jake at all, its not your responsibility how Mantic manage there updates and backers at all. Your employed to write rules and the community feedback you already provide mostly from your own spare time is fantastic and while I may not always agree with your design choices I cannot complement you enough in your willingness to talk to the gaming community. I am also really angry because I feel this game could be seriously huge for Mantic if done right, as its theme and concept along with the added mile of scenery doors and high quality tiles (promised space hulk style quality – I hope that remains) that put into outside of the specialist games market and into the mainstream boardgame market. Agros and Tesco could sell this game ‘IF’ its done right and I am becoming increasingly worried they are going to miss the mark and really let themselves down.

        Thanks for reading
        crimsonsun

        • eriochrome says:

          All the rules jake needed to make in an accelrated timescale sort of limits the external input. Nature of kickstarters i guess. To steal from an cliche it is not the number of stats but hoe you use them. Two of my favorite gw games have very limited model stats, blood bowl and epic armeggaddon, but well crafted rules compared to 40k which has more stats with poorly crafted rules. This is probably a project that would worked much better in a wave release system but that costs more money due doubling up shipping.

          Looking at what jake has listed here i think he has our backs in trying to get a good game here. While the choices of certain heros actions in the game are limiting enogh to seem sort of boring the real choices are at the team level which is different.

        • crimsonsun says:

          Blood Bowl and Epic however while being games I love are also games that have an entirely different and more narrowed scope. Blood Bowl is a forced sports event and has all the restrictions and limitations within that as the game focuses on the sport, while epic is at a scale where micromanagement is not in its scope. Dungeons by there nature are far more varied and versatile, you not only take on the role of thugs kicking some poor monsters front door in to steal his collection of priceless artefacts but you need to interact with the scenery from tables, to book cases, doors, underwater areas, pockets of natural gas, traps, unsafe ground, climbing rock faces, pillaging tombs etc.

          Basically the scope is far greater and while I respect that time is a constant constraint, time was pointed out by myself and others as a concern/worry with all the promised content. I disagree that multiple waves would be the way to go as it creates fractured rules but I for one would have far rather had what was promised in terms of feedback and a community influenced system and have the release delayed until jan next year but more to the point promises should not have been made that Mantic had no intention of keeping and that’s a cold hard fact rather than the rest of my posts which are largely influenced by my opinions.

          Thanks Crimsonsun

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Just to say that all the content required for the core, adventurer’s companion and all 4 expansions has already been finished in a first draft format. It’s being tested now to spot any bits I’ve missed and check card numbers, etc. As eriochrome says, there’s a lot to get done.

          Playtesting is a topic I keep meaning to get round to as a design theory article (or three). However, my early drafts of those articles keep getting bigger and more unwieldy. It’s a surprisingly complex topic. Suffice to say that one key feature of the process is that you only get one first look at something, so it’s always worth thinking carefully when you use that first look resource (because you should treat it as a scarce resource). To get the best value from it (in terms of getting the best game at the end) you need to use it sparingly, and save as much as possible for as late as you can in the process. That way you catch more subtle problems and, in that way, remove many issues that a would otherwise turn up as FAQ later.

        • crimsonsun says:

          As you say playtesting is a giant topic in its own right in the form of its use as well as the various types of play test formats that exist from fine tuning/editing to being a fundamental aspect of fashioning the core mechanics. While the forms of gathering feedback and the amount of raw data will have a huge influence on what you can do. DnD 5th took a lot from its playtesting though they had vast amounts of data that they compiled in very specific areas over the stages of the campaign using resources most games companies could only dream of having to compile and decode the information!

          Crimsonsun 😀

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Of course, the resources you need to run playtests and then process all the subsequent feedback have to come from somewhere, so there is always the balance to be struck between running one and just getting on with other parts of the project that need doing. No company ever has enough resources to do everything.

        • eriochrome says:

          I have a feeling that most of those dungeon crawl things you describe are just not really in there. I have asked all along for rules that make the art on the tiles matter which would help with your stuff there but other than lava we are not getting it. Certainly lostpotential. I know i have some pledger remorse but that just reminds me to not back these types of kickstarters. Certianly made me not pledge for the conan stuff recently.

        • Nakano says:

          What ideas you eriochrome had in mind if tiles had some effects? Tile effects might limit the artwork and possible complicate things too much. I think I’m happy with simpler terrain effects like lava, swamp and water. Lava potentially inflicts damage if walked on there (or you simply cannot walk there, but you might get pushed there). The last two could slowdown movement. However, the tiles should be designed these effects in mind so they’re clear to the players when an effect is on.
          I wonder what effects furniture has:
          – Does those limit line of sight / increase defense (e.g. barrel in front of you could allow half defense towards enemy before you).
          – Does they block movement or can you climb on top of barrel.
          – Can one break furniture.

        • eriochrome says:

          I would have to go digging on the site but i think tiles with lava, water, chasms, and ice on parts if them were my basic suggestions. Things that limited movement for many characters but allowed special rules to cross or such.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          Other than lava, art on the current tiles has no game effect. This is a design decision that I am entirely happy with as it makes the tiles more useful overall. Personally I dislike tiles where I have to pay attention to some art and not others as I find that confusing. Lava is so obvious that you can’t miss it, and seems obvious that it should do something different, so it does. When we get tiles with large bodies of water or ice then they will follow similar rules, I expect. However, any small bits of clutter on the boards is there for decoration rather than game effect.

          I don’t see this as a limitation at all – in fact, quite the reverse. Having stuff printed on the board which cannot be changed is far more of a restriction when it comes to laying out dungeons. What I want (and what we have) is a broad canvas onto which I can place traps, furniture and monsters. That’s enormously flexible and fun to play with 🙂

        • crimsonsun says:

          Got to say I agree with this use of tiles, creating features is not too difficult and often far easier than ignoring what’s there already!

  16. eriochrome says:

    Given that we are already down for the basic game, what can you tell us about the expansions? Ehat sets each one apart? What is diffrrent about the overlord decks? How does the dragon on function wuth just the one big monster?

    • Quirkworthy says:

      Big questions! To do them justice I’ll have to write a much longer reply than this comment. In brief though, the expansions are themed partly by the tile sets and dungeon layouts, partly by the types of creatures that are in them, and partly by the things you need to do in them. For example, in the Return of Valandor you fight a sort of undead demon while one of your Heroes is possessed by the returned spirit of Valandor himself. The Orc expansion is full of tiny, winding corridors, whereas the abyssal one has none of these (plus lava – which appears nowhere else).

      The Dragon expansion only has one model in the expansion, but he has enthralled an army of servants to protect him, so he is not alone. You can use undead or anything else you have as models for these thralls, as they are the remains of the failed heroes who have been sent against him over the centuries. The thralls could look like anything. They have new stats in the expansion, but no specific models. I tend to use the undead that come in the core set as they are sort of undead – just not ones created by necromancy.

  17. alessandro says:

    @ crimsonsun;
    we must remember that this is a kickstarter project, if we like it we finance it, if we are unsure we can wait and buy it the game and expansion when they are out (the price offered in pre-sale from Mantic is not very different from kickstarter but this is another question).
    Jake has always done a good work and Mantic has given the support needed at the moment the game goes on sale. As backers we should be happy to have payed a little less and to have the game sooner (always) so we can paint the minis …..:)

    • crimsonsun says:

      This will be my last post on the subject here as its not the place..

      @Alessandro, so if Mantic ran a kickstarter for Warpath or Deadzone 2 then once the funding was in, Ronnie changed his mind and decided he instead was going to use the money to create a life sized my little pony cloud castle, you’d be fine with that because you would get some free entry tickets to it once completed? No me neither. So when a company says it is going to do something and fails to do so, I am rightfully in my mind going to pull them up on it and highlight the fact.

      Fact: Mantic promised updated rules before the funding campaign finished, along with a detailed overview of the mechanics being funded. – This did not happen.

      Fact: Mantic said that this project would be developed with extensive feedback and response from the backers. – This did not happen.

      Fact: Mantic said we would have playtest rules two weeks ago. – This Still has not happened.

      Fact: Mantic said we would have detailed information and play test materials before the pledge manager closes – This is looking EXTREMELY unlikely.

      I am sorry if I seem to be coming across somewhat aggressively towards you as that is not my intent at all and if that feels the case I apologise. I am purely trying to explain why I have issue. Now to many backers these aspects may not be a concern or of importance but to me they were critical. I have no interest in the game if I don’t like the mechanics and I was promised more information on forums and in reply to questions multiple times, this information has never materialised but I backed the project safe in the knowledge the community feedback and opinion would matter in this project development. Sadly it now appears this is not the case, so I’m understandably upset and concerned, I hate being lied to and I hate being mislead and that’s exactly what has happened and as a result I am fully entitled to kick up a fuss and hit back with the only resource I have, that of public opinion and discussion.

      End of rants. If anyone wishes to discuss my issues/concerns further please feel free to email me @crimsonsun_2000@yahoo.com or to contact my via Steam, Ventrillo, on the Mantic Forums, Warseer Forums, BoLs Forums, Druchii Net, youtube, gmail, RPG.net, Boardgame Geek or the game specific boards I am a regular/admin on such as the OCC, UKBBL, BBTactics, owfleague, talkfantasyfootball, mordheim, whitemoondreams or warlord games.

      Thanks for reading.

      • Quirkworthy says:

        Thanks for the comments Crimson. I’ve been busy the last couple of days, so I apologise for not getting onto this discussion sooner. As you say, some of this is out of my hands, but I can help a bit, so I will.

        Last time I spoke with Ronnie he was still talking about releasing the rules for you guys to look at. I don’t think that has changed. I believe that the delay isn’t one of intent, but one of practicality. Last I heard, they were redesigning some of the master layouts to make it clearer to use. There’s not much point in sending out things that are in the middle of major relaying because the layout is one of the key things that needs checking.

        We had a public playtest day recently, so we haven’t exactly ignored people entirely. And, though that isn’t the same as a public beta (nor is it intended to replace one) it is the feedback from this which has largely driven the current round of changes. One of the things that came out here was that the rules weren’t a major issue for people – the sticking points were almost all layout details.

        Anyway, what can I do? Mostly, that’s discuss the rules. So, I’ll write a piece today to take an overview of the adventurer’s companion rules and talk a bit about what’s in it and how each section works in brief. It will be quite long, and so it’ll take a while to write, so won’t go up for some hours. Once you’ve had that then you’ll probably have some more detailed questions or I can pick individual areas apart in follow-up articles. Actually, thinking about it, it’d be ridiculously long if I went through everything in detail so I’ll do a general article to recap on what’s there, and then do follow ups for the details. That’s much more manageable (and more likely to get finished today). Once you’ve got that you can tell me what order you want to know the details in.

        Hope that helps.

        • crimsonsun says:

          That will be hugely appreciated and at least give some clearer insight into what’s happening. I only commented here because it my posts were mentioned and I maintain that my anger is solely at how I feel backers have been communicated with.

          Anyway Thank you.

        • Quirkworthy says:

          No problem Crimson. Happy to help if I can.

        • Quazai says:

          Thanks Jake. A lot of us seem to have pretty high hopes for this game and I really appreciate you giving us more information before the Pledge Manager closes.

  18. alessandro says:

    my comment wasn’t written against crimson Sun,, i always enjoy reading the post he writes in mantic forum or here, but was a general comment on kickstarter project and the relation between the producers and the pledgers. Mantic in the end has always done good products and Jake can help us to understand better what game we will have, but i think the pledge manager closure date should put no problems to the development of a game as complex as DS, and if you’re not sure about the quality could wait to buy expansions when they hit shops. The miniatures alone should cover the cost of the basic game.
    I too think Mantic communication should be better (DBX !?)… we keep waiting…

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