I decided to keep myself out of the discussion today, to let you guys come up with comments unsteered by me. Just to see what happened. The result has been rather fewer comments than I’d expected, but some goodies. Thank you for those 🙂
As I know that many of you are in different timezones, I’m leaving a final collation of comments and updating the files I submit till first thing tomorrow morning, my time. Which means that you’ve got another 8 hours or so.
After that it’ll be in layout and though we may have the opportunity to change the odd number here or there, nothing’s guaranteed.
So, any final thoughts on these teams?
Mutants : Guards with both Gotcha! and Threatening seem a nasty combo, as does Gotcha+CFAT, as do Strikers with Move 6 and Skill 3+…
Adel-Lorena : Rules seem clear and a bit like the Judwan ability. With such a high speed, this team may be quite good on strikes, but they don’t seem overpowered obviously.
Crystallans : They are essentially Striker-less Forgefathers with a bonus in swarms. The card makes them better and allows them a (small) chance to strike if they get a lucky pick. Range 3 is reasonnable. With 1 Harmonic near, they are inferior to Zees. With 1 Harmonics near, the Crystallans are slightly inferior to Forgefathers (for the lack of Strikers). With 2 near, they become about as good as a team of Tronker without Strikers (5+ on 4d is roughly statistically equivalent to 4+ on 3d, in fact it’s slightly inferior in term of probabilities), which makes them somewhat on par with the Orx. With 3, the Guards do become threatening because of that +1 dice on Str and the fact they can defend decently with those 4 dice on 5+. But the team will remain much weaker than most others the majority of the time, and attrition will get them over time as they get weaker exponentially with each player out. And they will suffer A LOT against Tsudochans, who can easily cancel Harmonics, and against the Nameless, which will cancel their mobility, and likewise the Koris probably, which will cancel their herd tactics by moving aside. The trick with Crystallans seem to do it the Asterian way, to have them fall into their hexes so that they aren’t taken out on Sub Benches by back Slams, then to have another Guard Slam. Take out the three Jacks (which won’t move fast because they need to keep in herd, like the Forgefather) and the team will be crushed. I’m sorry, I don’t like that team, it’s too fragile to tear apart, and they have many of the weaknesses in play that Forgefathers have. Lack of a Striker with Speed 5+ is a huge weakness, so the Harmonics gimmick should be a buff, not an essential condition for them to be just average. (Compare to the Trontek…) Perhaps they’d fare better if Harmonics had a far reduced range, but they had in compensation 4+ in Speed. At the speed the Crystallan herd moves, if the opponent scores a 4 point Strike, they are toast. 😦
I obviously meant “with 0 Harmonics near”, < Zees… 🙂
Tsudochan – I think that the Tsudochan would benefit from dropping down to one card and picking up a Coaching Dice (or two) in it’s place. They need a hand up when going for early scores.
Koris – I thought that they were pretty balanced against the male Corporation team. I like them the way they are. The dropping Armor for the Confusion checks could work, but it is an interesting balancing mechanic against Strikers (Koris or opposing teams’).
By and large, I think your revised versions are superior. Thanks for considering opinions from the fan base. That mentioned, Bernard’s critique of the mutants and crystallans seem fair (especially the articulation of the crystallans).
havent added more comments as I haven’t been able to play test but the alteration to make every model in plague and mechites unique I think is a good solution, though may need a lot of rechecking the roster during play.
The need to check the roster is an inevitable side-effect of allowing this much choice. It’s not really avoidable.
Here we go. First, I know it’s not easy being a game designer and to take the criticism of the fans. You handle it wonderfully. Dreadball as a game itself is great. You listen to the fans and that is great too. So my compliments to you!
Tsudochan- Awesome! I love them. I will buy them. They are at the top of my list, and if I could only ever have one more team, they would be it! Great job!
Mutants- They were a bit over powered, and you toned them down a bit. So good job! I haven’t been able to test the new version, but the last version wasn’t that far off. Also, getting rid of the dirty tricks option was great, and well needed. I think these guys will be fine moving forward.
Mechanites- See most of the Mutants above.
Koris- I liked them fine the way they were and even tested them. Move change to 4 will make them a little more portal dependant, but I’m sure that’s what you are going for. I still think the extra 2 dice on the confusion test is overkill, but it is what it is.
Crystallans- Are going to be a challenge to players. Some players like that, some don’t. I’m kind of in the middle. I like a challenge until it’s obvious that the challenge can not be overcome. I know I’m adding nothing to the disscussion on these guys but I just don’t like them. Every team is not for everybody.
Ada-lorana- I honestly liked the last version better. As they sit, they just seem bland to me. Honestly they were probably #2 on my list to get out of the 6 presented, now they are at 5 and maybe 6.
I think that the Tsudochan are great and I will probably pick them up as they will be fun to play with and against. The Crystallans are pretty cool too and I think they are balanced from our playing with them. They will be tough to use, but will reward the player who learns them, I believe. I thought the Koris were fine before the movement penalty and I kind of wish they got that back, but everything else is good.
The Mutants and Mechanites were waaaaaaaaaay too powerful with their costs and combinations but I think they are much better and flavorful now. They will probably still be a top tier team, but if you need to actually keep the models looking like you build them then I am ok with that as players really have to know what they are going to do and stick with it. They’ll be fun to play with and will probably be good for new players who have a game or two under their belts.
The Ada-Lorena got gimped too much, I think. Losing both the Evade/Dodge ability and also the minus to Strength tests for and against has hobbled them a lot. Bring back the -1 to Strength tests and I think they should be fine again. I am worried that the fact they only have six models is going to be a detriment in leagues, especially when you look at the costs of each player. However, I guess there is nothing that can be done now. If there was a way to put another model into the boxes, then that would be nice as I feel they should have seven players as a starting team. They will die off too easily and even if they only get injured, you are going to be playing with a shortened bench very, very quickly in most games.
Thinking of other 6 model teams.. Judwan had to get nerfed, but they have an advantage with throwing/scoring and a way to avoid being hit.. and they are all Strikers.. and Move 6… … the Chromium Chargers are the only other team with 6 models that I can think of.. and they have a unique mechanism for having the right model in the right place at the right time.. so I think the current list makes Ada-Lorana probably equal to Robots in rank… not the worst thing in the world.. and I can’t say that the Ada-Lorana as written are “bad”.. I just think they lose a lot of flavor.. yeah, Insubstantial is actually pretty great for getting 2 or 3 models exactly where you need them… (and then using 2 more activations and a card, or getting a double on a pick up to get an extra run or throw)… or get an Offensive Coach and make some pretty decent passes.. but as soon as you start losing models, you are in trouble.. which isn’t vastly different from the Chromium Chargers or Judwan… so I ‘WANT’ the Ada-Lorana to be more flavorful, more special, and have another special rule besides Incorporeal.. but I can’t demand that they get that way… which makes me sad =p lol
I will always stand by my statement that using a portal should cost an action. If nothing else it brings them in line with any other game aspect. I place them where I want and have to do nothing to keep them there the rest of the game and my opponent can do nothing to remove them. If you don’t agree then as an alternative spending an action to upkeep portals.
Also with the reduction in movement the Striker should maintain skill 3.
If using the portal costs an action, it will usually be more effective to just run/sprint. That just defeats the purpose…
I also think you’re underestimating Skill 3. Such a thing must be handled with extreme care… =/
I would like to start off by saying thank you Jake. Allowing us to playtest and give our input whist have you listen and respond is very rewarding. You took a chance on us, I just hope we didn’t disappoint.
Tsudochan- I love these! Like the zees, they have a unique gimmick that works whilst not being overpowered. I can see these guys being a lot of fun to play.
Koris- I won’t lie my initial thoughts when reading this team wasn’t pleasant. All I saw was a strong team dropping portals and winning games fast. Now with their movement allowance dropped to 4, clearer clarification on the portal use and the skill 4+ this team seems balanced. Though I haven’t had chance to playtest your latest version sadly, I do think they are in a good place.
Crystallans- surprisingly these were my favourite to play! With the changes to harmonics my team was able to move about more and in my 1st game that helped me win, though in my second game I shouldn’t have played so loose but meh. 3+ guards with 2 assists and the harmonic bonus is simply nasty, downright nasty as my friends striker can vouch for lol. I hear the corporation are still finding remnants of that poor little fella scattered about the place 😂. As I’ve said before they are a thinking man’s smash team. They are not going to win every game but in a league they will be scary as they level up. Personally I like the harmonic change but I also seem to be the only 1 that does, so maybe the masses are onto something?
Ada Lorena- version 3 is to bland, sorry Jake. They’ve lost a lot of character and are now a watered down version of a teraton team. For me version 2 was the best. Whilst they may have been a little strong as a team they weren’t overbearing. They had style and panache in spades that felt right for them. I mean they are ghosts, hey should be hard to hit and for them to hit others.
Mechs- They are no longer ridiculous and I love the changes made. I’ve tried to make a “broken” team and have been unable to. I’ve made strong teams that if they lose a player or 2 then they will suffer for it. They are still a strong team and in the right hands will be great but they are certainly not creating their own elite tier anymore.
Mutants- this was the team I had been looking forward to before I saw the rules. I’m a big time zombie fan, So mutants are a big “hell yeah” for me. Like the mechs, the aspects that made this team broken have been removed or toned down as to not be game breaking. As they are now, they are great. The level of customization is cool whilst the limit of 1 type of mutation combination doesn’t feel restrictive. These guys are going to be a hell of a lot of fun playing and making.
If I was excited before I can honestly say I’m like a child on Christmas eve now. I can’t wait for season 5 and 6 to be released ☺
Hi Jake a hi everybody! ^_^
So firstly, a big thanks to Jake for all the work you’ve made! Thanks for listening everyone, the new rules seems far better now.
I’ve made lot of games yesterday (few more tonight), and our general impressions are very good.
Tsudochan : just perfect as they are. Lot of fun, lot of thinking, We’d good and interesting games.
Simple, playable and challenging.
Koris : All the changes were made by our players group the other day. For me, that’s playable and these adjustments are justified. With their skill 4+ and their portal abilities, they can throw a strike very quickly. The skill 4+ don’t make them too strong for scoring, but in League plays, they could progress easily. I was surprised with the movement change (they’ve four legs! 😉 ), but it works. They have to take some risks with dashes. There is a real challenge, and that’s what I love.
Crystallans : As Skarfang said, they were my favourite too ! Lot, lot, lot of fun! We have to think about all the moves. 3 hexes for Harmonics is good, not too far, not too near. The best change is the Force bonus with 3 friends nearby. You have to think your moves, make some choices.
However, they’re strong! I mean REAL STRONG! (Two dead at Rush 2 in the first game – my friend won’t make this mistake twice!).
So, again a good team. Very strong, but very slow. So difficult to win, but not impossible. As Teratons, You will have difficulty to win your first games in League, but they can going strong and stronger).
This team brings a real challenge.
Mutants : The changes are good. I like the rule that we can’t make same mutant twice. So a real mix of players. Only two games with them, but good ones. Fun & strong.
We have to test them again tonight.
Mechs : We haven’t test them, so I won’t say anything.
However, as I read the rules, my only fear is to see a “perfect team”. A same team play by all players. But that’s only a impression.
We gonna test them tonight (sorry, I know it will be too late ^_^ )
Ada Lorena : That’s the team I’m waiting the most. And I’m a bit disappointed with them. As lots have said, they’ve lost their personality. I think that’s the most difficult team to create.
However, we’ve played three games with them, and with the new rules, they’re playable. They’re fast, but they’re missing something. Maybe a ability to balance the changes.
In their solid state, they’re still difficult to hit. So why not giving them Grizzled.
But in other way, with their Speed 3+, they are quick to react and fast to dodge. So… No Grizzled is too strong, too efficient for them.
So why not with “Slippery Customer” ? OK, they aren’t really physical, they aren’t really slippery, but in the idea, they could be difficult to hit or to approach. It seems cool to me, as I think they are in my imagination (you try to hit a ghost!).
As French translation, “Slippery Customer” was translated as “Imperceptible” (in English term) – so it seems valuable to me that this imperceptible ability could be a good one.
That’s my thoughts with all these teams!
Can’t wait to see Kalyshi (every one want to play them! 😉 ) and Convicts!
So, again, thanks Jake for all you work, and for your listening.
Hope to play some games with you one day! ^_^
KORIS: I’m afraid they might have gone a tiny tad too much in the other direction, what with both Move 4 and Skill 4. But I’d much rather have them at this level than their previous level, so I think they’re fine. If you do want to change anything, give them back move 5.
ADA-LORANA: They went too far in the other direction. Give them back either the +1 to Dodge/Evade, *or* the +1 to Slam/Slambacks.
CRYSTALLANS: The Strength/Speed switch diluted their play style. Put Strength at tier 2 and Speed at tier 3. If you do this, they’d be perfectly placed in the middle tier, and would be challenging yet rewarding to play.
TSUDOCHANS: Simply perfect, and nothing short of a joy to play with/against.
PLAGUE MUTANTS: Doubling the cost of extras is way too much. I agree that extras should cost more, but I’d say something like dice = 8, staff = 10, cards = 12. Or, failing that, increase them by 50% instead. Straight-up doubling the price of extras is horrendous in my opinion.
MECHANITES: No thoughts, I haven’t tested them at all.
Also: Any idea when the Convicts/Kalyshi will be playable? I’ve been itching to take those beautiful models to the pitch ever since I received them an eternity ago! 🙂 (sorry for asking in the wrong place, didn’t know where else to go)
And thanks for including us in the process. It’s been a joy! I’ve been hitting F5 on Quirkworthy almost as much as I did during the two DB Kickstarters! And that’s saying something.
Hi Jake. I just wanted to pop by to thank you to allow this beta testing, and taking the comments into account.
I really enjoyed beta testing for Season 3 and coming back with feedback, and I wish I could have some time to give a hand with those teams al well. But bad timing, and anyway you seem to have all the help you need.
I’ll see if I can come up with a match report over the weekend, but I fear it would arrive too late ! Let me know if that’s useless 😉
I’ll avoid giving any thoughts on the teams as I haven’t tested any. So my final thought will be that I hope this process will become a habit, as I think it would have helped Season 4 too !
I’m looking forward the tweaking phase of the existing team. I’d say I’m looking forward the Jack’s change too, but that seems to be in a distant future, which I regret.
I’d be happy to hear any comments. Just be sure to use the latest versions of the teams (on the next post).
I’d have liked to do more of this sort of testing. It’s not the only way to playtest stuff, but it does definitely have a place in the armoury.
I’ve got an experimental rule that I’d like people to try for Jacks, but I’ll wait a bit till this team stuff has settled down. Also, some other systems need some love too 🙂