Just to make things a little easier when it comes to sorting through all the feedback on the DZR beta, I’d like to collect all the points queries here. Obviously getting the points costs of the different models is important, and I think it will be clearer for everyone if there’s a single thread for this. It’ll certainly make life easier when it comes to collating the feedback and making sure it all gets properly considered.
Many of the values in the beta have been changed since I did them, so I’m not going to take part in the debate on what’s right and wrong. That’s for you to decide – preferably based on your experience with the game on the table.
When looking at points values, please use the 16 point basic Enforcer as your reference point. We have to assume something is correct and that’s as good as any.
When you decide a value is wrong, please explain why you think so.
Also, please stick to just basic model costs for the moment. Leave weapon and item costs for later.
If you’ve got more general comments on DZR you can put them here.
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Something thats been mentioned in the FAQ thread: Rebs troopers and marauder commandos cost the same amount of points, but marauders are strictly better. Might be something to look into.
Could just be a thing where they are pointed internally as for their own faction rather than as compared to those from other factions, but good point made.
That’s one approach, though I don’t think that’s the intent here. In DZR models should be of comparable points costs across all factions.
Point values for Grogans are clearly wrong…
Instead of trying to figure out each miniature, wouldn’t be easier to come up with a point cost for each ability? Since you have the Enforcer at 16 pts. for a base line, how many points are required to go one better for shoot? If it’s two points for one shift (6+ to 5+) then to go two better (6+ to 4+) it would be 4 pts. etc.
Creating a base line for the main attributes (Types to VPs) will help you get every piece on the same grading level, leaving you more time to deal with all those nasty Wep. & Eqip. and Abilities point costs.
I always took the Rebs Human to be the ‘baseline’ as it seemed the middle ground fro everything else. But maybe that’s just cos of how Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader used to have a points cost table for making your own statlines in it based off the standard human statline.
mastertugunegb – The reason I suggested the Enforcer as the baseline is that it’s one of the points costs that has not changed between the version I wrote and the beta.
More importantly, the basic Enforcer is also a common core trooper that lots of people have played either with or against. Probably rather more so than Rebs. If you want to propose points changes then you really need to know what the datum model is capable on the battlefield.
jgoldenf – I calculate points with an equation. However, it’s a lot more involved than having a fixed value for everything and adding them up. A given weapon, for example, is more dangerous when carried by a model with a better Shoot value, so the whole thing is best if it’s integrated. This is one reason I don’t much like the pick and mix approach to weapons on models. But that’s another debate…
I’m still not sure who made the changes to my original points values or why. For now, don’t worry about that. Just look at what’s in the beta and let us know if there are any points cost which seem wrong compared to the Enforcer. Ta 🙂
Right now, rebs troopers are just a cheap way to give access to specialist models. They need something. To represent their rebs side, increase their cost to 10 or 12 and give them scavenger.
Even if they’ll have that “zee vibe”, they cost near from the double.
Having just ran them in a game yesterday (posted in the Mantic forums), I disagree. Two of them seems roughly as valuable as one enforcer (the team they fought in the game). My issue is that they’re the same cost as a Marauder commando, but the commando is better at both fighting and surviving. It’s the one that needs bumped up to 10 pnts.
Nah, that feels wrong. Besides, why would you want to have zees then? You dont really have much of a reason to use them anyway, with scour objectives gone, but if every trooper gets scavenger… thered be no point in using up a specialist slot to use zee.
I do agree that troopers need something though… maybe a limited form of scout? (half of your troopers get scout, for instance? Or up to three? Would work thematically, and could be pretty useful. )
Not really been following the rules changes so ignore me or shoot me down freely but to me thematically are about disruption and therefore when writing a rule set for my own use I gave them a very basic form of communication disruption that would reduce a enemy units ability to receive special commands due to interference within a fixed distance from the rebel trooper. Obviously I’m not sure how that would work in DZR but as a concept I feel its a solid one.
You are probably right…
And about Strider ? I don’t really understand that there are no differences between the enforcers one and the rebs one… AP3 with wight of fire and 4+ to shoot is just insane !!!
just one crazy idea:
How about giving them tactician(1)? they won’t replace the leader has they are too squishy and doesn’t give special army rule but it reflet the polyvalence of a non military organisation like the rebs. If the leader goes down the troopers are used to work alone (before they were recrute or because of the lake of communication in unofficial forces) and will be less handicaped than a team trained to blindly follow orders and respect hierarchy.
On other points troubles:
I think that rebs sniper could go to 20pts rather than 16 given the initial cost of the gun, and the power of a non heavy sniper
I like that idea, actually gives the team a certain flavor, and gives a slight bonus, without completely changing things.
Can I just say that I really think the super-custom army list should be an optional ruleset for campaigns or something? They go in the exact opposite direction that DZR is taking with streamlining things. I mean, sure, you can have a bunch of basic lists for people to just hop in and run with (which, by the way, I think it’s odd that Veer-myn are one of the two “starter” lists, am I the only one who doesn’t own them already? In fact, I backed the Infestation Kickstarter at the Lockdown level, and even when I get those models, I still won’t have the Veer-myn needed for that list), but that’s not as fun as making a list. Making a list is fun, but for the basic game, especially for newer players, it’s much better to simply pick a card and the model that goes with it than it is to write up a big roster with individual stats that may or my not match up to the models you are using. Writing up the roster also takes much longer than picking out models from cards.
Now, I can’t really say much about the point values of model without talking about items, because all the models have items. This is a problem. As several other people have said, the point value for the model has to include the value of the weapons it comes with, but then it also has to be able to have a value based on what weapons you can purchase for it. Their stats change the value of added weapons and gear, but the ability to add certain weapons and gear changes the value of those stats.
There’s also the issue that one model’s stats might be worth a certain amount in one faction, and a different amount in another faction. This is because of how their stats interact with the abilities of the rest of their strike team. And since most of the abilities are tied to weapons instead of models at the moment, there’s no way to talk about the cost of the models without talking about he cost of the weapons.
There’s also issues with certain stats and abilities being absolutely vital to a faction as to make a model mandatory for every list (Rebs Teraton is a perfect example), which is a really good sign that it’s probably doing too much, and the other models in the faction aren’t doing enough of something (for Rebs, it’s “not dying”).
Actually, because of this, I don’t really see the difference in stats for Marauder Commando and Rebs Trooper at the same cost being an error, as they have access to different weapons/items/specialists, and I think that has an affect on what their cost should be. As it stands now, it doesn’t really make sense, but I think once it gets worked out the Marauders are going to have higher stats than their cost would indicate (if they are done the way I think they will be done).
So, to sum up, if they are really going to be using this system for building army lists, it’s not to the stage of development where it is ready to be evaluating point costs.
Okay, now that I’ve had my rant, I’ll say I know that you already told Mantic most of this, I just wanted to be able to say it as a fan (and the Mantic forums don’t work for newer people…. they really aught to do something about that).
I will say, I really like the flavors of the factions based on what items/weapons/tech they have available. The only thing missing at this point is giving Enforcers a few weapon options with Suppression. Plague are the blitzy melee faction. Enforcers are the “standard” well-equipped and straightforward tactic faction. Veer-myn are the like plague, but slightly more range capable, with lots of It Burns!. Dwarves are heavier, slower version of Enforcers, with It Burns! instead of Suppression (again, assuming Enforcers get more Suppression, which they should). Rebs are the ragtag faction of people using the widest variety of tactics and tech. Marauders are the “bare essentials” faction, where everything is designed to do one job really well. Asterians aren’t anything right now (except maybe Kalyshi swarm), but that’s because their most common ability has no rules associated with it yet (Construct).
Deadzone has been my second favorite wargame for a while now (Warmachine is my first favorite), and to be honest, the DZR rules really feel like they have a chance to bump it up to the #1 position. The only things holding it back right now are the limited strategic options for Shoot (which makes the 3D terrain not as significant), and the ridiculousness of army building using this wonky model/weapon customization.
I play with my brother and his two eldest kids (6 and 10 or something like that, i can’t remember how old they are!) We only recently got them playing. My solution to your first paragraph is that I’m going to make a cheat sheet for each of them to get started with, with just the models they have (enforcer starter for the eldest, forge father start for the younger one). So i can say to them, that model has these stats, these guns and costs this. With then the extra equipment they can by extra, just like in DZ1. Then when we start a campaign, I’ll open it up more.
I suspect it’ll take me an hour or so to write up, just got to get round to it!
I for one really like the ability of having a choice of equipment for my toy soldiers. With the release of firefight and pathfinder i would like deadzone to have lots of options for every single model. Firefight and warpath would propably not let us choose equipment so it makes sense (for me) that Deadzone would allow it.
But as have been correctly pointed out, all models must have some restrictions of what kind equipment they can use. This also makes it possible to change cost for the same weapon to be used by different models. I.e. The rebel leader can be equiped with a sniper rifle for 5p but if you would like to give a single Zee a sniper rifle for 2p.
You can simple imagine the Zee having a less powerfull sniper rifle. But more importently the sniper rifle is a more potent weapon in the hands of a model with a higher Shoot value.
I disagree with trying to give each number of stat point a point value. It creats more problems then it solves. (I would like to give you some exemples but as this post took me over an hour to write I had to cut some corners) Better to simply use the 16p enforcer as the baseline and try to figure outhow much better model X is then the enforcer and put a point value on that and playtest.
Regarding the reb vs marouders commander beeing equal in points. This should probably be fixed but sometimes its possible to have equaly pointed models in different armies which have the same stats. This creates more character to the different armies. Looking at this in a different light. A good melee model in the plauge would cost 18p but if the rebs would like a reb model with the same stats it would have to pay 23p for the exact same statline. This would create options for the rebs but enforce the theme of the army.
Ok so i’ll understand that this discussion was more on the philosophy of a point system then balancing the current DZR list. Sorry about that.
About point balance, the forge father militia got a better stat line than the enforcer and is only lower by a point of armour (will having a 4+ fight and giving only 1VP) and yet the model is 4pts under the enforcer (2pts of difference will having a gun which cost 2pts also) I think that the militia should be 12pts naked and therefore 16pts with the PA1 rifle.
An other reason is because a duel between a militia with hailstorm rifle and an enforcer with standard rifle would be a draw (same shoot and survive the armore is compensate by the PA and in close combat the armore equal the 4+ of the militia).
The rebs trooper should indeed have either one additional rule or cost 6pts rather than 8 (either this or the commando marauder goes to 10pts, haven’t played them for now).
Does the Twin Hailstorm Autocannon on the Iron Ancestor also have Fire control? It is not listed on his profile but listed in the weapons profile.
This is both about rule and point system so I will put it in both post. I’ve been thinking about a way to balance the weapon system while keeping variety in equipment. So:
first page is a work on the basic models of each army (droide,rebs trooper,enforcer,stage3a,comando,militia…) in order to balance their point cost and then set an option system.
Second page is a rework of the all asterian army list in order to include the previous modifications and a weapon system.
The weapon system work in two phases: first the model equipment which set the model price and role (he can be upgrad to specialist according to its stuff); and then he can select 1+ additional weapon in the second in order to add adaptability.
The item system remain unchanged.
Hello guys !
So now that I played some games, I will sum up my thoughts about REBS :
Rebel Troop Commander :
She is awesome. After our first game, I thought she was too powerful but the lack of AP on her weapon, her survive stat or her special command dice make her well balanced.
Rebel Yndij Infiltrator Commander :
Meh. If you compare him the troop commander, I don’t see why you would take him over her. For 4 points you gain an awesome weapon with awesome hit stat and tactician (2). And his skills put him on the front line, with bad survive stat and 2 VP…
Worst is that he has the same special command dice. I really like the idea of a different special dice per leader like with the plague, it opens interessting choices when you create your list.
To keep that infiltrator flavor :
– Increase his cost to 28 points
– Give him a recon test of 3+
– A new special command dice, something stealthy like :
“If you discard this dice, the cube where your activated model is, is now under the effect of a smoke grenade until the beginning of next round. You can use this dice anytime during this model activation.”
Rebel Trooper :
Right now, you only take one beacause he is cheap. Somebody already talks about the porblem with commando cost but it doesn’t solve the problem of this model. He brings nothing to the table except a way to have access to specialist troops for nothing.
They need something even if their cost increase, why not repair ? It’s not really useful but it goes along with the idea of rebs are always short with material issues. Anyway, REBS should have at list on repair guy.
Kraaw Warrior :
Scout, glide, good fight stat, a blast weapon (short range) and an interessting cost. A great loadout.
Rebel Sorak :
… A bad kraaw warrior. Maybe even a bad rebel trooper ! He needs something or a cost decrease to 8 points at least. You have to expose him to fire if you want to use his blast weapon but with 6+ survive test, he won’t last long. And if you want a pointless model to give you access to specialist, you have rebel trooper.
Rebel Yndij :
Really cool ! High mobility on the board with basic stat and basic weapon. It’s fine, he brings something to your list that no others models can do.
Rebel Sniper :
Ooooh ! That one is good, really good ! He is still balanced because of his survive stat and his VPs (2). He is powerful, yes, but he is easy to take down and it can cost you the game ! We just need a miniature for him (them ? ^^) now ! 🙂
Zee Scavenger :
Cool model with interessting option. His cost, his VP (0) and scavenger make him usefull. A good option.
Survey Drone :
I think you forget something there, right ? A 6+ shoot stat and a tag rifle will be enough… for 8 or 10 points. I understand why he is a specialist and not a troop, everybody will play sniper and drone, so keep it that way.
Rebel Teraton :
First of all, everybody agree that teleport is a special action and that a special action is a short action ? So I can move (1), teleport (2), move thanks to command dice (1) and have a free fight ?
Huge !!! Really, I crushed a ripper suit mauler without taking a wound ! I need more tests with him but he might need a points increase.
Judwan Medic :
Well, I think that every medic need a point decrease in this game. It’s a fast paced game, even more in Redux, healing is not intuitiv ! ^^ 10 points will be intressting I guess. A teraton with defender shield, followed by a medic… a lot of Vps but seems fun.
Rebel Strider :
He is good .
But enforcer strider is way more awesome for a little cost increase. I really think that plague and rebs striders need a cost decrease to be balanced. Not to much but 4 or 6 points will be definitly great ! Or an increase for enforcer one.
I love new REBS ! I had a lot of fun playing them during my tests. They just need some little cost increase/decrease or new skills on some models to make every options in the faction interessting. I won’t talk about gears and weaponery because this system is going to change soon but look forward to !
Some ideas :
– It will be really cool to have a guy with repair in this faction, it seems legit.
– Grogan with tough !!! 🙂
It will be great to have a REBEL JET BIKE ! We are in a Star Wars time and we all have that picture of the race between a scootrooper and a rebel on jet bikes, with ewoks walking around ! We already have kits like strider for different factions, it won’t cost much and will be soooo cool ! 🙂
It’s been said earlier that the rebs commander’s sniper have the PA as listed in the army weapon.
Why would rebs need a repair guy with juste one vehicle? (even if I agree that it would be fluff).
I don’t see armor penetration on the rebs sniper rifle… in her statline or in the army weapon list.
And for a repair guys, just because it’s fluff ! 😉
oh yes sorry^^’
I think an interesting way to solve the rebs trooper point cost issue and fit into their ragtag themtics would be to have something similar to the mutation counters from DZ1. Like whenever you select a rebel trooper to your squad you roll a die and the model gets the related ability, Ex:
2: Speed = 1-1
3: Tactician (1)
4: Weight of Fire (1)
5: Speed = 2-3
8: Shoot,Fight and Survive improve by 1
I know that this would probably be a nightmare to balance properly and you would need tokens or something to track which trooper got which ability, but I think it would be right in line with the rebels theme and would lead to a of variance when taking rebel troopers 🙂
I think this would be both hard to keep track in game and againt the gameplay of DZR (fast, less roll and as few counter as possible)
It would only be a one time roll in the setup stage which would add maybe a minute tops to setup and with the buying a unit and their weapons system instead of stat cards the setup is a little bit longer already. But I agree with your point that having counters isn’t really DZR style, I guess I’m still thinking in terms of DZ1
The Pathfinders are the same price as the Enforcers, with the only difference is 1 less armor, Scout and a Tag rifle. I think that they are not priced accordingly. They are not very overly powerful in the games we have played.