Mantic’s announced a Deadzone expansion Kickstarter, featuring the Veer-myn (among other things). This post is really just to act as a place for you to add any comments on that, if you have any thoughts you’d like to share. Some folks have already posted on the DZ FAQ page. I can’t see how I can move those comments to this thread, so I’ll list a few of the ideas here before I delete them:
- Toxic grenades
- Incendiary grenades
- Squeezing through small gaps (like rats do)
- Possible changes to rats and cover
- Bonus to breaking off
- Cheap “super rats”
Sounds like you imagine the Veer-myn to be a sneaky and stinky bunch 🙂
Anyway, we’ve not had much in the way of internal discussions on this yet, so if you have some ideas then now is the best time to throw them into the pot.
What would you do?
Don’t forget Silent ability to have rats sneak around !
Who said that?
Sorry, didn’t hear you creep up 😉
The Night Spawn could be the leader (and should be, he’s so cute ^^ )
I don’t see how to implement Shadowbreed, that could cause some balance issues to have rats coming back on the battlefield.
Perhaps. Swarms of the chaps is very characterful though.
I would expect som ratish abilities excessively developped :
– very reactive even to the point that they seem to act before others –> so something like a “sentry” like ability allowing them to have lightning reflexes and be able to be in overwatch by default (with their base overwatch action being sprint)
– Expert in camouflage and hidding –> so something like stealh but more powerful like a camouflage ability allowing them to get survival bonus / not being shot at (but blazed away though ^^) when in cover zones (that would be rumbles / littered cubes + building which would fit perfectly with their nature)
– As a counterpart, they should have a “flee or die” mental so they should have something that encourage them to flee at any sign of strong resistance… low armour would be probably a good one
– One fun stuff (yet complex to set up in DZ) would be for them to be demolition experts, capable of digging / exploding walls to create access through buildings without going in the open.
Destructible terrain is a pain in the backside. We discussed this at length when the terrain was being designed, and agreed that it would mean that the main aims would all be compromised. Might have to wait for the computer game version 😉
Camo/hiding/sneaking are all very much the stuff of rats.
how about sewers as a movement option? place some sewer counters (manhole covers) on the board and allow some rats to use them as entry points and also allow people to use them to move between their locations. Maybe some dice rolls to give it some randomness, like you roll for when they reappear (1 model lost, 2-4 does not reappear 5-8 reappears, gets a bonus for every consecutive round in the sewers), where they reappear (1-2 opponent chooses, 3-4 random location, 5-8 owning player chooses). Rats do get some bonus for all sewer interactions.
You could also add some other interactions, like sealing sewer entrances, maybe a possibly random chance that opposing models fight in the sewer if both faction are inside of them.
Sewer movement is all very Stalingrad – not that that’s a bad image for DZ. The issue I would have is its abstraction (especially if it came to a fight down there). DZ is quite literal in its sense of where things are. Still, not impossible. It might just have to be one of those things that is abstract to make it work.
Alternatively, we could make sewer terrain tiles… who knows? That’s got its own issues with getting in to see what’s going on, then again, what urban terrain doesn’t?
I do like the idea of sewer terrain, but I don’t think that would work well, for 2 reasons. Reason 1 is, that you would need 2 boards at the same time, which would become very cumbersome if you play multi mat games,
Reason 2 is, that I don’t think a network of 3″x3″ tiles are adequate for representing a sewer. It should be more of a claustrophobic environment.
I think for general play abstract is best, and if the fights make it to problematic, leave them out and just use it as a risky potential fast travel mode.
However, it would be an excellent opportunity to salvage some ideas from Project Pandora and a good crossover opportunity should you and Mantic redo PP in the future.
BTW, I don’t see the sewers as such as a specific Veer-Myn item, I see it more as an extension for general terrain and the rats serve as the best possible way to introduce something like that.
I agree that 2 boards is fiddly. That’s the same reason I don’t much like multiple levels in a single scenario for DS, so I’m not advocating that as a solution. However, you could have sewer based scenarios (if the scenery was available) in between overground ones.
Just thinking out loud.
It’s really not thaty complicated. As long as you don’t go crazy one one or both boards. Keep one or the other or both, depending on the *focus* of the game being played, pretty simple.
IKeep the main board the one that’s far more interesting. You can have a rather plain *topside* board if you want the main part to be in the sewer. & vice versa. If you want it to be pretty equal, then do both boards up to a *medium* level of complexity. Enough to make it a good game, but not too much that it slows both boards down.
As for 3×3 tiles, you just need to reduce the *capacity* of the sewer tiles, rules-wise. From 5 models max per tile topside, 3 max per tile in the sewer, for example. The sewer terrian could be made so that the flat bottom is 2×3 wide, with 45* angled .5″ pieces on either side. This would still let ya get bigger models in & moved around easily enough. The angled sides would give the feeling of closer quarters & more of a *sci-fi sewer-like* shape to it.
Some DZ *CQB* special rules for sewer fights, that can also be added to fighting inside buildings, would be very cool too.
I think there’s a lot of practical experimentation to do before we decide on any specific plan for sewers. That’s the best way to find out what works 🙂
For the love of God, give us some of those. The concept is thematically sound and can you imagine how cool the miniatures could be?
I’ve seen rats being sneaky, and they’re famous for being good at running away. Not sure I’ve ever seen a rat dressed in black with a throwing star in its paw 😉
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles’ master is a “ninja” rat ^^
But that’s made up.
Oooo deadzone expansion. Only discovered this game recently and its quickly become one of my favourites. Any idea when this will launch?
What I would like to see in an expansion.
Veer myn (obviously!)
Z’or (can’t remember name, bugly aliens)
More alien mercenaries (lots to choose from in dreadball seasons 4-6) psychic especially of interest.
Another nexus psi type narrative campaign (more location / advantage based than focus on vs plague) poss with poster map
Environmental rules (night fighting, fog) including basice hiding & spotting mechanic poss scanner & spotlight equip rules.
Cubes on fire, catching fire, flamethrowers?
smoke grenades, flash bangs (and other battle field control weapons)
Zombie plague solo play (was this not promised in incursion)
More non combatant ideas for the focus of mission. Likewise equipment / tech skills that allow interaction with terrain
Orbital insertion rules / scenarios
More structural / civil terrain. Road tiles, columns, beams, maglev tracks, pylons, generators, transformer stations etc.
Base building rules, Base raiding scenarios, convoy raid. What about scenario templates? Low ammunition perhaps, ambush (using detection rules) hostage rescue / kidnap?
MORE FLUFF!!! Deadzone would be greatly enhanced, as would warpath with a greater expose on how the world works. In particular how all the races treat ftl travel etc. Wasn’t sure how the corporation works with only small ships / containers being able to go that fast. And more detaips about the plague, the artifacts, the asterians and the death arc etc.
Enough to be getting on with?
Lots of ideas there Drew. No problem with being broader than Veer-myn.
Some of your suggestions have already been done (solo Zombie is in Contagion, smoke and catching fire are in the core game).
I don’t know when it will launch. Mantic’s announcement says later this year. I usually hear eight different dates beforehand, and then know for sure the same time you guys do 🙂
has contagion been released yet? I searched for it before and all I found was the original name for the core set?
No idea. I have a hard copy, so I know it’s been printed, beyond that I can’t say.
KS backers got the PDF and received their printed book with wave 2 invoices.
just check, out later this year, can only get a digital copy as part of the bundle on the mantic digital store, ho hum, guess i’ll have to wait for solo zombie madness! Care to let us know what else is in the book?!
Contagion is the smallest of the books. It covers zombies in solo and multiple player games, how the AI cards work, and has backgrounds for a bunch of mercenaries.
not long left of this year now! as my five year old loves to remind me it’s only 13 weeks or so till Xmas!
I know. Alarming, isn’t it? Where did 2014 go?
Some of them should have the Scavenger ability, they’re here to grab stuff.
Missions will be Scour ones I guess…
Scavenger would fit the packrat mentality nicely. It might be a bit tricky to balance if lots of them had it. Perhaps a new ability that allowed them 2 items?
Yes that could be better.
Pack Rat: Model may carry 2 items rather than 1. Does not prevent Booby Trap cards being played against the model..
Apologies, I’ve written a more general list of wants from an expansion rather than veer-myn specific.
Sewer movement sounds awesome, swarm rules would be good. Would direct weapons fire effect swarms or only suppression / area effect?
Could veer myn have infiltrators and trap setting rules?
Infiltrating and sewer rules kind of go together. Traps? Possibly. It’s another thing that fits their devious nature. Of course, once we’ve introduced the concept then I can have my mines 😀
Ooooo, a certain class of veer-myn trooper could spend an action to place a counter in a cube.
During the course of the game he may place as many of these counters as he likes but in truth all but 1 of them are blanks, the live counter goes off when revealed by any model that enters that cube and goes off like a frag grenade (gas, glue, flash bang, smoke)
This Veer-myn trapper would also have the ability to turn any scavenged / purchased grenades into these makeshift traps.
I love the idea of the blank tiles really racketing the tension and paranoia up for your opponent as he explores the trap ridden settlements the Veer-myn are looting.
One danger though, if your talking about a pack rat style model that can carry more than 1 piece of equipment then these two together could put a line of live munitions across near half the board!
If all the Veer-myn could place them then there would be that danger. If it was an engineer ability….
Instead of making a new ability, make trap setting an extension on Engineer and perhaps even Scavenger?
Maybe the Veer-myn can spend 5pts to buy a ‘rat hole’ marker that they can plop either in the center dark grey strip or the light grey strip closest to their Deployment Zone on the ground level, which then makes the cube it’s in count as a bonus Deployment Zone cube. It can only allow up to 1 size 1 model deploy in this bonus Deployment cube, but can be used for Infiltration (by the enemy) or Scour (by the Veermyn faction who paid for it) criteria. It can also be destroyed during play. Like Enforcer Engineers and Sentry Guns, you need to have an equivalent Veer-myn Specialist on the force to represent the expertise used to create this mostly stable tunnel network below.
I’d like to see more for the existing factions–for example, the Forge Fathers have 2 types of troop, one of which is crazy expensive, while the Rebs have 4 types of troop, all under the cost of one brokkr.
It would be interesting to see rules and cards for customizable mission decks. So, instead of getting 8 or 10 missions by default, I have to pick from 20 missions, with limitations on what I can put in a deck, etc. This means I can plan a little bit more tightly toward my list, while still having randomness/variability in the missions.
You touch on a very important design concept here Mike: things should be equal, but they should not be the same. As long as FF are competitive then they don’t need the cheap options. The issue is being able to fight on a level playing field. Absolutely the least interesting and worst choice for me is to give everyone the same thing. Many, many games fall foul of this mania for giving every faction some cavalry, a flyer, a tank, whatever, just tick every box for everyone – and it makes the whole thing blander and blander. Bland is one of the cardinal sins in my book. So yes, balance where it’s needed, but no slavish following of formulas if I can help it.
Of course, having said that, one of the main drivers for this approach is sales, and that aspect of the brief isn’t something I can control.
Customisable mission decks (in fact customisable decks in general) was my original approach. During the design phase I ended up pulling back from that as I was already juggling a lot of complex concepts and it was just too much to drop on everyone. I think when we do this KS it will be good to do a revised rulebook. Revised not in any major rules sense (just include the FAQ), but in terms of the way it’s presented and the rules are explained. Once people have a clearer idea of the core system then adding things like drafting decks is entirely possible.
And, because I seem to have rambled without mentioning it yet, I absolutely agree that something for everyone would be a good idea. That would depend on the level of funding though, as what Ronnie really wanted was hard plastics and they don’t come cheap.
That would be great to enhance the rulebook with having all the abilities from all the books in the same table. Same thing for all possible actions, even if they go with a specific ability.
That’s one option. I’m not sure exactly what we’d end up doing, just that we all agree it could be clearer. A major part of this is trying to make the learning curve less steep.
I made a full rule synthesis in french, maybe you want to see how I organized each rule module ? My friends find it works well.
Sure, thanks. Certainly can’t hurt 🙂
Ooo dz advanced ^^
While customized decks can quickly become a headache (at least for me), you could have models bring their own set of battle cards, so depending on your strike team compo, you could have a different set of battle tricks. This could enhance differenciation especially if you have leaders bring their own specific set of drills and tricks to the team.
On the equals yet not identiqual : i would love to see specific career paths for experience in campaign, which would bring added differenciations. Factions could have their specific career paths which would increase profiles diversity without needing to create new models.
Again, these are things that were in my original draft of DZ, and were trimmed later. If we do go back to PP and do a DS style revamp as I hope we will, then that’s exactly the sort of thing we’d be able to include there.
As I suggested earlier, the cards were originally rather more involved, and almost a sub-game on their own. Unfortunately this does cause some production issues as you need varying numbers of cards for different models. It’s quite a wasteful and expensive approach that usually ends up with a lot of unused cards gathering dust in the warehouse.
* I think when we do this KS it will be good to do a revised rulebook. Revised not in any major rules sense (just include the FAQ), but in terms of the way it’s presented and the rules are explained.*
A revised rulebook already? What would it do to all those lovelycLE hardback rulebooks? If you revise things so soon, you risk making the hardback rulebooks obsolete before many of us have time to even get full use outta them. That would suck. Even a new LE hbrb would kinda suck If it was another $40 &/or free at such & such pledge level.
Just the thought of invalidating &/or even just needing *this* as well as the LE hbrb harkens to *other* mini wargaming companies practices. A FAQ is one thing. A printout to clear things up doesn’t offend. New/revised rules that add to the core game, making the LE hbrb look kinda ridiculous… I know the game can’t exist in a vacuum but still…
Well in terms of getting use out of them, we haven’t even started the KS yet, and then they’ve got to be made. I don’t think you’re talking soon. You should get plenty of use out of the hardbacks before the new versions land. In fact, I’d hope that your use of these books would help inform us of what needed changing 🙂
As I said, “revised not in any major rules sense”. It’s main focus is about clearing up anything that’s not clear (FAQ) and making the learning process smoother. There will be new rules for any new factions, etc, but there’s no plan for any major overhaul of the core rules.
@Quickworthy- Replied through the KS message system. If there’s a better place to send my reply to you guys privately, please let me know. It was long & I don’t want to make it into something it’s not, by posting it for all to see.
more than anything id like either more leader options for most factions or some sort of custom character generation system …………… the sewer idea above sounds so interesting i may have to try it today
More leaders would be nice (though see my mini-rant at poor old Mike, above).
I’m wondering, as part of this kickstarter could we look at the whole way leaders work.
They form a pivotal part of the game narrative being not only the link to HQ for the stike force but also a powerful game presence with their typically high command value ( a brilliant mechanic by the way, kill the leader and the opposition becomes less efficient, very elegant mechanic).
Could Leaders have some sort of trait, in a way like the assistant coaches in dreadball, that gives the team a flavour or represents the commanders orders on the board, perhaps offering a +1/-1 dice switch for aggressive / defensive / specific tactics, needs some thinking but worth looking into I think.
Also could you consider introducing a ‘legacy’ rule like in carnevale. This one always seems to cause arguments and I was originally heavily opposed to it but after seeing it in play it really works well. Essentially after successfully completing a number of missions (5 in carnevale) the abilities of the leader are recognised and he is promoted by the powers that be onto challenges anew.
You need to win missions to win campaigns so voluntarily failing to hang onto your leader is never a good tactic and with a campaign lasting 10-15 games most teams will see a change of leadership once or twice.
I found it really brings narrative into your team (great for creating a hall of fame too!) and it changes the dynamic of how your team plays (the close combat monster that was your leader is gone, what do you do? purchase a new green leader (transfer) promote the unit with the next highest command value?) over the course of games your troops get better so very rarely are you left with your only choice for leader being too substandard.
Some interesting thoughts Drew.
I’m not sure about the legacy thing. It’s the sort of thing I impose on people as “realistic” and then get told off for being mean 😉
I felt exactly the same when I heard about the rule Jake, misty memories of awesome necromunda gang leaders and all singing all dancing blood bowl star players, if someone had told me then that they would take them away I would not have been happy.
The one thing those old games had in common though was that they got out of had, if played rules as written, after too long.
In the case of Carnevale I really like the way the promotion of leaders forced change and evolution into the game whilst keeping it very narrative (a big plus in my book). As I mentioned before the hall of fame thing was often discussed and the celebrity get together for a royal rumble style scenario when all the old faces came back was a one off wonderland!
In shorter campaigns and one off games I would agree that such a rule isn’t necessary (but it is still enjoyable in some ways) and there may be a balance issue in deadzone as there is a big difference between the battle field presence of a Rebs leader vs a plague or enforcer leader but some kind of reward / balancing mechanic could be derived I’m sure.
In longer campaigns I think such a rule shines, keeping you strike force fresh and constantly evolving.
It is an interesting rule. Can’t say I remember it from my reading of Carnevale, so I might have to go back and have a re-read. Overall the game left me with a meh feeling, though it’s hard to do all that without there being some clever bits lurking in there somewhere.
Separate mission cards for each leader maybe?
Will further characterize a strike team by its leader and give the player greater control over which mission to play.
(In essense, I just feel the missions should be… looked at, at least)
Players not having complete control was the reason it was designed as it is. Being able to pick just allows folk to do their favourite one every time with a force that’s optimised for that task alone, and removes much of the real commander’s skill of being able to adapt to the mission and foe at hand.
That said, I expect that the main bar to doing character-specific missions for everyone will be practical. That would entail a lot more cards, plus every time you made a new character model you’d have locked yourself into making cards for them. It becomes logistically fiddly, which all translates into expense.
Looking at the balance of missions, adding some more, and generally tweaking the forces where necessary are all things I’d want to do while we were working on DZ.
Totally agree, that’s why this game is great !
General tweaks on mission balance, etc would be cool, Hopefully you have a lot more playtest data now that the game is out in the wild. I personally find the scour missions a bit tougher. Also a lot of the missions don’t scale well to 100 point games so maybe more objectives and items could be added in for those?
Code 13 missions often finish in a blood bath instead of completing the mission.
The 70 points Strike teams work well with the missions as is, I find Code 13 is less well balanced for some mission types (especially Scour).
Code 13 is expected to be harder (as should be explained in the background). I’ll look at them again though.
There is the Horde ability that could be used : rats alone are weak, but when outnumbering an opponent they may be deadly.
That would work if you assume you’re dealing with the rubbish of their forces. DZ normally assumes that we’re looking at the elite units, even if they include troops that are poor compared to their enemies. Worth bearing in mind though.
Maybe the “weakest” ones like dogs and rebs flying drone.
This could be a gimmick for the Veer-Myn faction indeed : 4 rats in the same cube give +3 +3AP to the rat that fights. Fight stat at 6+ should limit their strength.
That sort of thing would work. I was already going on at Stew to make loads of rats to add to all the bases (and make swarms). I hope we get them 🙂
If nothing else, provide small rats to swarm the Veermyn bases with for dat there scenic effect! 🙂
The elite forces should still have the underlying nature of working as a swarm. An ability for some of their soldiers to jump into an adjacent cube to assist an ally Ver-Myn soldier would fit wonderfully. If not an upgrade, maybe just a minor action they could take, like a limited Overwatch.
Yes this fits well with their Scurry ability from Project Pandora.
Twitchy: +1 to Overwatch Tests. Unlike Sentry, this confers no Overwatch token for free at the beginning of the Round. It’s up to the model as to how paranoid it is.
Veer-myn iconic weapon is the (hand) drill, so how about some weapon ability that allows to bypass or diminish either cover or armour? Drill projectiles? Also some digging ability could be used to temporary hide below junk, pass below walls, etcc. Or plant landimes, or plant proximity/vibration sensors (since Veer-myn have notorious bad eyesight they coul have developed extreme sensibility to sounds/vibrations). Or to create sinkholes against large heavy enemy machinery. Actually some kind of graboid like creature could vork great with them, a mole-hound. They could be great as fast “glass cannon” i think.
Need to be careful not to steal the Brokkr’s thunder here. They are, after all, a race of miners. I do think there is room for digging if it’s focused on sneaking about out of sight, and springing ambushes. That gives it a different flavour from the Brokkr mining, which tends to be more about being able to bore a hole through anything.
I would also like to see some rules and stats for the marines. Yes I believe you mention they would be a bit squishy. But with the 2 factions done it will allow fans of Project Pandora to reverse stats for other faction to be used in Project Pandora.
Actually i “think” it could be possible to use deadzone engine and scenery to recreate Project Pandora, a bit larger and more complex. This could be a nice extra, abit like DKH in Dungeon Saga.
I think we may come back to do a parallel of the DKH-DS sort of thing with PP at some stage. Maybe. It’s certainly a possibility.
I resisted doing stats for marines as they were the antithesis of the special forces we normally get as the major players in DZ. Of course, that doesn’t mean we won’t get them in an expansion…
I do understand the bit about marines being lessor than the enforcers but they would be cool to use during a campaign where it is the initial outbreak on a planet. Say it only lasts a certain out of turns and depending on how each side does is how they are reinforced with other squads of more significant troops.
For campaign play they would work well and it wouldn’t surprise me if they ended up being on my to do list at the end of the Kickstarter 🙂
Considering what the rebs have as troops, the marines being weak is hardly an argument not to include them. Marines have enough interesting things for DZ and I believe they could work well. Units they have right now are striders, regular marines (slightly better than rebs humans) Veterans (special weapons, improved stats) Rangers (jump pack) all heavy firepower would be from their Heavy weapons teams (Heavy Laser, light/burst laser, mortar) and their commander would be similar to the marauder commander. There would be virtually no melee capability outside of sergeants, which should be leaders anyway.
I do think that they would have a distinct playing style from all other factions and I like the idea of having them.
The corporation being weak is absolutely a reason not to include them. As I said earlier, it’s about the elite units for that race and not in relation to other forces. When there is a Plague outbreak the Corporation sends in Enforcers. That’s their SOP. The potency of Enforcers is irrelevant to Rebs as they cannot deploy them: they’ve got to go with what they’ve got.
As I also said earlier, if we were doing first contact missions against a new outbreak of Plague before the Enforcers arrived, then Marines would be appropriate. It’s context.
Would they be fun? Could they be different? I see no reason why not.
Something I would like to see stats for the Mortis model, if he is part of the Verr-myn. Or even a Merc. It is a great model and already made.
I believe it was at the end of the Incursion book that showed a picture of him. That could not have been an accident…
Mortis looks like a Veer-Myn big one, but it seems it’s a totally different creature… I didn’t read fluff about him, but I know he raises dead from the battlefields, his “zombies” are not the same that the ones created by the Plague. The fact he’s on a picture in the Incursion book has nothing to do with Deadzone for now.
Someone asked me about him the other day. It’s possible. As he’s a veer-myn it would seem reasonable to expect him somewhere in the expansion. We shall see.
Good to know that he is at least in the discussion for the DZ expansion. I know that guarantees nothing….
1 Thing more customisation!
What sort of thing were you wanting to customise?
The idea of having a basic trooper that you then equip from a big list of stuff was abandoned very early on. That was the way my first version worked, and something Ronnie thought a bit too complex. Given all the other variables which ended up in the game I think he was right. Was that what you were thinking of?
Maybe limited to your leaders. Who doesnt want to create you own leaders. Enforcer captain leading from the front with a defender shield, dual pistol wielding rebs commander or a teraton tech commander.
Also dual wielding could having 2 weapons allow a model to do 2 shoot actions 1 with each weapon. Thinkibg the survior here.
Bespoke leaders is something Warzone has, and it’s an interesting hint of role-play and story telling without going the whole hog of names all round. Worth considering.
I would like to see some sort of swarm attack for the rats. I love the idea of a single trooper being overwhelmed by a swarm of rats all jumping from the shadows at one time.
Yup. I’ve been asking if we can spec a sprue of rats of varying sizes. I’d really like to see rats on bases of all sorts of Veer-myn models just to give them the sense of being accompanied by almost a carpet of their lesser brethren as they go about their business. Then you have the models for swarms too 🙂
I’m most interested in how they will be differentiated in terms of battlecards & missions. On face of it I would image they would be quite “scavengy”/infiltrate heavy which would make them most like Rebs currently. Then again chem weapons promise to be quite different which makes for a slightly different slant from the rebs. It might be nice to introduce some faction specific special orders perhaps?
Agreed. Similar in some ways to Rebs, but not entirely.
Yay, rats. 😀
And another vote for getting some Nameless into the next load of releases, preferably as a faction of their own. That would make me happy too.
Sewer rules could work if they were just portals allowing instantaneous movement around the board. I like the ideas of tokens or maybe even modelled hatches/transport pads. Thematically, they could be technology stolen or scavenged… (This is an effort by me to include more things Stargate into the world) 😉
I don’t think sewers should teleport. The Corporation doesn’t use that tech routinely, so it’s hardly likely to be used to move poo 😉
The sewers issue could be raised through markers, they are blank, 1,2,3 etc representing numbers or nothing at all. That way the Ver-men are possibly sneaking around, or not. A set of rules for breaching, covert entry etc. Could make the battlefield interesting, and some races would have tech that monitored for such vibrations like, Forge Fathers.
Number underside, pic of ver-man on top. Move like troops.
A sort of Space Hulk blip?
That would be a good way to implement this : Veer-myn move, but you don’t know where they really are or how many they are.
Space hulk like blips denoting hidden movement.
Scanners to reveal numbers and movement
A tension level that goes shooting through the roof
I think we’ve just recreated aliens in an awesome solo / tower defense game mode!
Yes, sort of a Space Hulk Blip, it would create tension and develop the Rats into something of a nuisance and tactical play.
I’m afraid the rats would run into the same problem as the Rebs in our games. Lots of cheap models that just fall flat. Their models just seem so weak for the point value. Point-for-point they seem to lose all fights! Would swarms of cheap rats do the same?
Have you notice balance problems with the Reb units? Or are we playing them wrong? In our games the Rebs player basically always has more units, and his opponent always uses all his moves without passing. They have yet to win a match!
I think we play them wrong, Rebs can be a pain to fight against especially Soraks with their blast weapons. They must try to pin down opponents to make them only do Get Mean actions most of the time. I think missions are difficult to complete for some of them : too much Scour and opponent can destroy easily items.
Rebs are the most different of all the factions, and the ones that people struggle with most often. I think there is a link.
Trying to fight the other side’s game with them is a losing tactic. They’ve got to play to their own strengths and to their own mission. Although this is generally true in any game it goes double for the Rebs. They are unforgiving if you take your eye off the ball and things can go downhill rapidly. Probably the hardest side to use well.
Even so, it may be that they aren’t as good as they need to be and I’m looking at what tweaks can be made to make them more competitive without simply making them the same as everyone else – as that would be tedious.
Maybe some missions need to be modified… especially those that become unwinnable if items are all destroyed (5 of them need Scour).
Perhaps; or more items need placing, or destroyed items count in some way. There are a number of options.
I would advocate more items on the board that would help the rebs regain some power back.
I wouldn’t just add loads of ammo and grenades though. I would like to see the items systems improved to have a distiction between “supplies” consumables that you have every intention of using up and “gear” stufd to help you do what your doing ie holo sights, camo cloaks. The idea being that gear becomes part of the model if they start the game with it so add modeling opportunity and allows greater customisation. That way the 1 item limit is only on “supplies”.
The increase in items should include loot tokens that are supplies that you roll on a table post game to find out what you get. Could work for Veer-myn they get a re roll on the loot tables.
Maybe destroying items should be limited to deployed Sentry guns.
Destroying grenades or ammo packs to prevent rebs from scavenging them is mean.
People being mean in battle? Whatever next?
^^ that’s not what I wanted to say !
In fact this goes in the wrong direction of gameplay : you can’t have an unfullfilable mission because of someone who doesn’t play the game –> they should throw the grenades, use the ammo or be burdened with them and be a potential target instead of simply destroying them ! The game is about fighting the opponent in most cases.
I would prefer to see my opponent run with stuff in his pockets to prevent me from scavenging it and me to be able to kill an enemy to scavenge the dropped items… and this could be a trap : getting opponent run after items to get a clear shot at some point (yes that’s mean !)
(I don’t now if I’m writing it correctly…).
You’re writing it fine Pika, and you’re absolutely right. I agree.
I would say you generally do not spend time destroying ammo crates and secondary stuff in the heat of battle, there is so many stuff to do besides that.
If they are potentially bringing strategic advantage to the enemy, they would need to be destroyed by people specialized in demolition (like engineer).
So maybe some tweaking about destroying items ? 😀
I think so.
Take in account that if you add more items on the board, people who bought the 8 resin crates pack will have some problem to add more…
Rebs may need another unit able to carry 2 or 3 items.
I hadn’t thought about the resin crates. I don’t have any myself, which makes it easy to forget them…
Even so, it would be a shame to limit the game’s expansion just for them. I’m sure there is a way we could get some more produced to mirror any expanded counter set we might do.
I would like to see more items, to allow certain factions to shore up weaknesses/maximise strengths (ammo that ignores tough for example.)
More options for each faction so that everyone does have a dog equivalent, bike etc. I recognise the desire for flavour and it is fair enough but you can always adjust the weighting, if Marauders are supposed to be dog breeders then give them another mawbeast type (for 3 total,) while the other factions just get one.
Shoring up some of the balance issues (perceived or otherwise) would be good (can be rolled into the above requests) and will be good for the long term performance of the game.
‘Strike-team wide’ command actions would be a great rebalancing tool I think as well. Options like: Activate 2x your command total this round (a Rebs fix) or Assisting blaze away grants and extra die this round or Every model in the strike team immediately Gets Mean. One off command bonuses to push things in your favour and could be spent (or a strike team only gets to pick one before a game, use multiple times) this would be similar to a Feat in Warmachine/Hordes…
No, no, no. Everyone having every equivalent is a perfect way to make a bland and dull background and game. It is the omissions that give the most character. Because the force selection in DZ is fairly open and the number of models so low, allowing a force access to even a single type of dog (for example) would effectively make them the same.
Working on balance is something that is seldom ever finished. The important thing is not to jump in too soon to correct things as there is a real “new army” effect with unfamiliar units, tactics, etc which skews the results. If it’s broken then it should be fixed though, absolutely. And this is a good opportunity for some tweaks.
I’m not convinced that feats are appropriate in DZ. It’s a neat rules concept, but it doesn’t feel right to me here. We’ve been discussing new cards above, and that would be my preferred approach to get a similar result. The battle deck is already an integral part of the command and control and integrates with the commanders. Adding new battle cards would be a good way to tweak the balance of the various factions.
When I say dog, I use the term loosely. The Rebs drone I would count as a dog equivalent, for example. To take such a stand though greatly limits the games scope and potential. You are effectively saying that the plague can pilot a Strider, but not a motorcyle, which lacks internal consistency. That Martians can fly an aircraft, but humans cant. Military actions have an inherent arms race, if one side gains an advantage (with say, a bigger better tank) the other invariably scrambles to redress the tactical balance in their favour (either with a similar tank, or a bigger better missile.)
I didn’t ask for everyone to get a cheap, quadruped melee specialist option. I ask for a small, cheap-ish option for each faction which fulfils a particular role in the military structure of each faction. I would equate mawbeasts = 3Ds = sentry guns = drones = bomb bots, which leaves Asterians in the cold. (should have been the drone swarm)
To add to my point a little; I can definitely respect having a vision for a faction and how it should play. The limitation here is that not all players can play or like playing all play styles. Most game systems however have some visual aspect that sparks a players interest. If a player hates a particular play-style but loves the associated models, they have a choice: pass on the game entirely, get the models but hate playing or hate the models but enjoy the game. By ‘blanding it up’ and letting factions stretch to other play styles (even if poorly) you reach a greater player base. Woe betide the players who want to play horde Asterians, or elite Rebs!
The first example that springs to mind that fits your ‘bland and dull because everyone has everything’ criterion is Warmachine/Hordes. From experience I can say that yes, every faction has 1 big stompy, 1 cav unit, 1 mechanic etc etc that each is usually different enough to add flavour. From the base differences in the Cav, some being melee others being ranged, others being magicians, all the Cav play very differently and add very different things to their faction. It isn’t just ‘everybody gets the same dudes with lances on horseback.’
From the thread, I posted these:
Based on the fluff, these guys (Crystallan)- http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/DreadBall-Xtreme-New-Team-Exclusive-Sneak-Peek.jpg
Would be perfect for Deadzone. A small strike force similar to Enforcers, highly trained because they are few in number. Maybe have some crystal beasts of burden as opposed to vehicles, to really separate them from the other factions.
The Nameless certainly would be a good faction too. Maybe allow them a “alliances” special rule where specific nameless can take troops from other specific factions as if the troop had “nameless” printed on it.
There is an idea, cross faction troops. Say, Corporation Marines that can slot into Enforcers OR Rebs. Goblin for Rebs, Plague and Marauders. Tsudochan maybe for the newer factions. I do think cross faction troops allows for some greater options, with minimal work. Come to think of it, Dogs could easily be cross faction too. Would love to see a German Shepard on the board.
(Someone suggested an RPG, which I support, but can understand this being an ENTIRELY separate Kickstarter.)
Oh, and the Ada-Lorana look perfect. You don’t even need to create new models. Just create the rules for the DBX team to slot right in. https://s3.amazonaws.com/ksr/assets/002/140/847/5058dfd37556557cda0ed22539afa5d0_large.jpg…
An RPG would be an entirely separate thing. That’s a whole new game.
As you say, there are a lot of DBX-led alien factions who might be worth exploring. Many of them would be natural adds for the Rebels rather than their own faction.
Don’t hold your breath for a canine faction…
I mentioned this faction before but the Z’oor (bugly aliens) are meant to be a faction (and considerable threat) in their own right, but I don’t know how well the idea of small elite teams of such a hive minded swarm race works, unless there was a really good story reason for them being there (dormant hatcheries awakening? original architects of the plague artifacts? …)
What other aliens do we have that would serve as legitimate factions in their own right? the ada lorena, the tsudochan, portal spinners, independent mech’s (being immune to the plague robots would have a considerable advantage on nexus psi). At this stage do we know enough about any of them to really say what fits or not?
One thing I would love to see though is, for any new faction, plenty of fluff that both gives more details on the race but also that ties them into the setting as was done for the asterians in incursion.
In broader terms Jake do we know what mantic want to get out of this kickstarter, are we looking to unlock one faction? two? three seasons worth! more terrain types? different modes of play?
Whilst your original question was about the veer myn is there any other ways we could explore their introduction to the game. For example people have mentioned marines, Could one off scenarios / short campaigns be set up to include non strike force enemies, as was done for the solo zombie mode. Could we have Veer-myn infiltrating a warehouse or an army base where marines could be on guard?
Instead of focusing on more unique missions for the factions (which I can see having balance issues) would it not be better to look at scenarios where perhaps one player takes a break from his team and runs the guards, the convoy etc.?
This may also give us the opportunity to take deadzone indoors, revisiting project Pandora on the way past. The deadzone terrain as is would need building in a different way but the majority of the components are already there.
Some good ideas on scenarios.
I’m not sure exactly what Ronnie has in mind beyond some vague conversations a while ago. To be honest I wasn’t expecting them to mention it publicly this soon. But that’s Mantic for you – keeps you on your toes 🙂
If I had to guess, I’d say they’d like to do all of the above. Really, like any other KS, they’ll have a long shopping list of things it’d be nice to do, and work through it depending on what amount of backing they get. Of course, there are priorities, though these can and often do change in the light of what backers ask for.
One of the possibilities here, which I think would be really cool, is to fund some new hard plastic sets. That’s a guess on my part, so don’t get too excited just yet. I just know that’s something that would really help Warpath when it comes along as well as being great for Deadzone, so it kills two birds with one stone. Hard plastic is so much easier to work with as a material to do things like customising leaders, and if we went that route in the rules it would be ideal to have the miniatures too. That said, if they were doing hard plastic troops then it would make most sense to do the tank and file first, so who knows?
Hmmmm, the Tank and file you say… I’ve heard lots of rumours about warpath tanks but if we explore that in terms of deadzone, Could we bring an APC / Light vehicle in (or something that does a similar job) for some of the factions?
If an APC equivalent was going to appear in warpath they could have their own entire supplement in deadzone.
To start with, APC’s would only be possible for use for certain missions as the way they move and how difficult they would be to kill would change the delicate balance of an otherwise well rounded game.
In terms of the games they could be used in though, scenario wise we would have convoy (been mentioned) courier? rescue/evac.? chase? line breaker? would work really well on two mat plus boards.
might be worth revisiting the old fallout tactics game on the PC, I seem to remember some missions / scenarios where an armoured vehicle played a central role.
on another note the warpath leader creation sounds fantastic. The whole hero creation rules were one of the things that drew me to the wolsung skirmish game.
Great idea to have solo play against a rat infestation, like Zombies but with a different behaviour.
I’m sure Jake will think about it ^^
When Mantic do their Warpath Kickstarter I think that will focus a lot on big stuff like tanks, flyers and walkers. Not my project, so I’ve not been involved in the details. That’s what Ronnie has said in seminars though 🙂
APCs are probably not much use on DZ. By the time you’ve got to the close quarters of a single mat you should have debussed from an APC, and even an IFV would be risking it given the anti-armour weapons floating about. Armour doesn’t like built up areas, and special forces aren’t often seen riding armour in combat. So probably not to start with. I expect Mantic will want rules for anything they make for Warpath in the end though, and vehicles would work better on larger boards. That does raise the question of whether you really want to be playing Warpath though…
If anything, IMHO, a hive mind style race would be “naturally Elite”. They skip the thousands of repetive drills to learn how to work together, because it’s one part instinctive behaviour bred into them at inception and one part near seamless coordination and obedience communicated to them from their alien overlords and their buggish generals on the battlefield.
I want a War Bunny faction.
And I want a Hello Kitty faction 🙂
If you get the IP, why not.
No reason at all.
Would like to see a “Stealth” mechcanic. Not a im invisble you cant see me but increases the confusion of where an ememy model is would be cool for the ratz. Dystopia wars does this with echo generation for some subs in that you replace the model with x number of counters/templates and you move them as one in different direction until they are revealed by yourself or the enemy seeing them etc
There’s a Stealth ability : you can move 1 cube and your opponent cannot use Overwatch against your model.
Same thing for weapons with Silent ability.
There is already a stealth ability which allows to not trigger overwatch. I find it a bit underwhelming as the benefit is quite narrow.
Yet I would like to have at least Veermyn have a camouflage ability usable as to put added malus on shoot actions if the model is in cover.
An upgrade would be to have what you are describing as a kind of complete dissimulation that allows to play decoy and such tactics… a bit similar to something that exists in Infinity with TO camouflage models and also in Space hulk with the blips (even if they are used in a different way).
That would definitely create a specific flavour and tactics to the Veer-myn (very very sneaky). Maybe as an ability this would be too powerful, yet as battle cards ?
Yeah i dont mind that stealth mechanic too much but like you say it feels a little lack luster. A more complex version could really change how certain aspects of the game play and enchance the “not know whats round the corner mentality”
Yeah i think i saw it in Infinty as well. For instance the worst Stealth is “Stealth(2)” where by you replace the model with 2 tokens they both do the same action at the same time and are activated together and count as 1 model, so long as you remain out of LOS and dont shoot with a non silenced weapon you remain as a token should a token be seen or blazed away at they controling player either removes a dud or replaces it with the model.
You wold have to mark 1 of the tokens. This way you could bump up camo cloaks, stealth devices etc with the most sneaky having “Stealth (4)”. Think there probably should be some limit on how far you can spread them out as well but its just an idea at the moment.
+1 ^^, love it for rats sneaks
Complex isn’t always better Blax. Personally, I’d argue that Infinity suffers from a wealth of unnecessarily complex rules which slow the game down more than they add to the fun. YMMV.
“Hidden” counters are a little tricky with DZ’s realistic line of sight. Hard to spot something that isn’t physically there. Still, it’s an area worth exploring with the rats, and once it’s done for them it may filter through to specialists in other factions too.
If one cannot use point los with those blips, one could use blaz away or upon entering cube to reveal them. Additionnally they could only be used as long as cover would be available (so cover cubes + building insides) to avoid having counters moving in the open where they are tricky to shoot at…
Alternatively, could have moving shadows models to impersonate a 3d picture of tokens which could be anything (eg : just a shadow or a real body).
One of the things I really loved about the Deadzone factions was how they always feel functionally different from each other e.g. the endless cards with courage in the Enforcer deck made them feel super disciplined. The construct rule for Asterians makes them feel like they really are remote controlled robots as they are more or less immune to Blaze away attacks. I would love it if my Rodents of Unusual Size similarly felt very ratty.
For instance you could make an ability that makes them always have one less die for surviving verses blaze away. Then give them a quality similar to crystallans where for every Veermyn in a cube above one they get an extra dice for saving verses blaze away. You therefore encourage the Veermyn player to clump his rats up into little swarms which keeps them on their feet.
Another thought that occured to me, while I understand a Veermyn infestation is a Deadzone reason in itself I would be surprised if coming into contact with the Plague would effect them in the same way as other races – given how mutant they are already. It would be hilarious to see a stage 2v Big Veermyn brawling through an enemy, of slightly bulkier stage 3v storming around the table with crazy veermyn hand to hand weaponry while their less mutated brethren egg them on from a safe distance!
Plague Veermyn, Hmm black death anyone.
Making the rats feel ratty is a core part of adding them as a faction. I don’t believe there is a point in adding factions that duplicate existing ones. Everyone needs their own way of being.
I think there’s still loads of room to add variant Plague creatures to that force. Not sure exactly what I’d start with though.
What I would like to see:
– few vehicles: trucks, tanks, air support
even skirmish sized groups have vehicle support
– possible airstrike or artillery support
(eventually similiar to Mars Attacks with cards)
– to move in small fire teams
for example similiar to the mechanic Song of Blades and Heroes uses, a commander moves several soldiers at once together or let them fire together.
– a bug plague with a collective intelligence
– Psi-powers, are there any already?
Dang. I’ve seen that model before (in a Weird World War project, of all things), but I’d not clocked that his bullet belt is loaded with carrots. That’s awesome. 😀
Skirmish sized groups can indeed have air support. However, looking at the scale of this close environment a single mat game would be miles within danger close. The scale on MA is a little larger, more abstract (and the whole thing is “comic book” anyway).
The Chovar has psychic powers.
The command mechanism that allows you to act with several models at once is already in DZ, as is the ability for several models to add weight of fire to a shooting attack.
And that model is kind of fun 🙂
Veer-myn sound interesting mechanically, but I’m not a big fan of the current models/lore. Though I am totally ready to have my opinion changed by this kickstarter. I’m also very open to some new factions, Nameless seems the most able to support some interesting variation, but I could see the Z’zor working as well.
I Don’t think they should go too crazy on additions to existing factions, but I do have some ideas.
-For rebs it would neat to see some existing aliens in different roles, like they did for the Sorak. Maybe a melee grogan or a teraton with a heavy weapon. There is obviously room to add new races as well but I think there is currently a good amount of variation.
-Enforcer’s are pretty good where they are currently, though a few corporation units(Rangers would be cool!) or weapon emplacements would be work.
-Plague could add more mutations for existing aliens like they did for the teraton as well as make some totally new mutation types. I think creatures with built in weapons would be nice.
-Marauders could see the stunts and hulk in new roles, could also see a few more special weapon commando types.
-Asterians, haven’t had a chance to look at them too much but additions could include a second robot type? Maybe something heavier or non humanoid(elfoid?)
-Forge fathers Love the difference between Brokkers and forge guard in both play style and appearance. Also really like the remote/operator theme, though I think the rules could use a few tweaks, it can be difficult to fit many in a list due to operator and remotes being specialists. I would be cool if there was a Troop operator or if an operator and remote counted as one slot usage.
Some general tweaks I would like to see is a bit more distinction in the unit type. Making rare distinct from special for example. I think it would help list building if leaders also unlocked a special slot, similar to troops.
Sorry that this is so big and wordy. Really love the game and your rules and think it’s great that you let/get the community so involved with previews and ideas!
Great idea, the asterians could have a long legged insect like walker, oddly enough a great model was recently unlocked for dreadball.
What about smaller stealth like drones / drone swarms for scouting forward, identifying objectives, equipment etc.
Really like the insecty walker idea. Also weak scout drones(Thinking of the ones in XCOM enemy unknown) sound sweet.
Thanks Luke (and write as much as you like – we won’t run out of “paper”). There’s a bunch of new background being written for the Veer-myn that explains how this campaign works. Can’t tell you what as I’ve not seen it yet, I just know it’s being written 🙂
I expect the main focus to be on new things, though a smattering of shiny toys for each of the existing factions is hard to resist. Some nice ideas in there. Thanks again.
Is it only me that has the Muppets Variant to this, ‘Rats in Space!” or am I just old…
Not sure there’s a polite answer to this ;P
Yeh thanks for that 😀
Great, now I can’t get this out of my head.
I see Veer-myn as a short ranged force with lots of flame-throwers, toxin bombs, biological weapons, radiation bombs and other weapons that don’t require great shooting skills to use them. I can’t imagine any snipers etc.
I like the idea of Veer-myn growing new members of their race in vats in vast laboratories. This allows them to create super veer-myn soldiers but also to ‘evolve’ themselves to tackle various problems/battlefield roles. I also see Veer-myn as a very agile/fast force that can easily run rings around other factions.
Therefore I see the standard Veer-myn soldier at being below average at shooting or indeed in a fight/survival. However they would be fast and agile.
Then you would have your specialists with flamethrowers, grenades etc. You would also have elite Veer-myn with better weaponry, armour and survival. And then various leaders that would be larger and better equipped.
Also I imagine Veer-myn to use ‘cannon fodder’ to draw away threats from its more superior soldiers. So that would be rat-dogs, Veer-myn slaves and perhaps monstrosities that went wrong in the lab!
I also like the idea of biological warfare with toxin grenades etc but also parasites. Large tape worms, mites and other horrid things which attach themselves to hosts in the game (enemy fighters) and/or slow them down and reduce their fighting ability so those pesky cheating Veer-Myn have more of a ‘equal’ chance in combat. They may use parasites themselves which they could bio-engineer to give positive properties to their own fighters – but at a cost! Perhaps you could have Veer-Myn soldiers with horrid things on them which reduce survival in order to enhance combat abilities etc.
With regards to a second new faction, I don’t like the idea of another weaker Corporation faction like the Imperial Guard. Anything that is any good from a standard Corporation force should be made available to Enforcers.
And idea for a rival human faction could a criminal syndicate like something out of Blade Runner or classic game Syndicate Wars that ‘snatch’ humans to turn them into new cyber-enhanced warriors that are stronger and more powerful. This criminal syndicate will not only be responsible for some of the most hideous crimes outside and in the Corporation but maybe responsible for many of the Deadzone Extreme games that are run underground.
In terms of another alien faction – no more 2 legs!!! Everything is very humanoid in Deadzone. How about something like the following:
A faction of creatures no bigger than a Zee, have little or no legs and are dependant on primitive hover technology, like a ‘hoverpack’, that allows them to glide but also hover over empty spaces. They would be good at shooting, many would be armed decent sniper rifles. But they would be poor in a fight hence the ability to hover out of harm’s way. Perhaps they could be a race of tinkerers that can create robotic combat warriors from scratch etc. They live to steal technology, supplies and generally scavenge.
A faction of creatures that have serpentine bodies, wings, 3 arms and are addicted to laughing gas. They would be sadistic creatures that live to fight and inflict pain on other creatures. Deadzone battles to these creatures would be like sport.
Rats being mostly short ranged makes sense. Not so sure about growing them in vats though. That sounds a bit organised. I rather imagine they simply breed like… rats.
Avoiding another bipedal faction is my sort of thinking. Some fun ideas there. It’s a conversation I need to have with the Mantic guys to see what they’ve been thinking of. Again, it’s one of those things that’s really dependent on the success of the KS.
An interesting dynamic with the labelled ‘tinker’ aliens would be that the leaders would be outclassed fighters when compared to their own mechanical constructs. The leaders would be great strategists, some of the best in the game. But in combat they would have to rely on tricks or indeed the protection of their own mechanical constructs. The standard fighters of this race would rely on long range rifles/snipers but up close they would be rubbish in close combat. So it would be down to a violent R2D2 and/or C3PO type robots to do the many necessary fighting/battlefield roles. This would be an army of elite engineers, elite operators and elite strategists supported by scrap mechanical constructs/robots – every designers/hobbyists dream. In terms of look I think something between a slug/squid. They would be natural slow creatures hence the need for something to buzz them around the battlefield.
And idea for a rival human faction could a criminal syndicate like something out of Blade Runner or classic game Syndicate Wars…
Alternatively to criminal org, you could use the existing corporations to create differenciated flavored teams who would be concerned by scavenging, gather intel and extract people as any good corpo is bound to do.
Reiker, carver inc., accutek, mazon labs, almar incorporated already exist in the background, just need stuff them up with adequate background and a special set of missions, specialist and battle cards… Could give a more urban aspect to missions with possibly new mission profiles focused on corporations goals (who said “kidnapp a plague lvl3” ?)
Must admit the criminal element would be interesting with criminal syndicates operating much like corporations, but with ‘less ethics??.’
It could open up possibilities and offer variant ideas, as you would be building gangs through to squads with the difference being the type of criminal gang or syndicate, as the virus spreads, so local gangs up to large multi system operated types. smaller gangs might be able to offer restraints in types of troop types and flexible natures but larger syndicates would be more strict in orders and creativity. Scenarios would be more of a criminal nature.
This could be great.
Criminals are a fun idea, though would you expect them to stand up to the military this way? Do the Mafia fight the SAS? I suspect the answer is “not if they can help it”. Still, this is science fiction, so…
My thinking with the Criminal Syndicate was that it would be a secret organisation but one with links right up the top of the Corporation, that it actually involves someone who sits on the Council of Seven!!! Perhaps it could use a more boring official company as a front. It started off as a shady organisation within the Corporation, like the many but over the years has increasingly taken over drugs, gambling, slavery, illegal dreadball games but also stealing technology, information and ideas. Now it has become so powerful it is able to compete against the Corporation on a virtual scale. As the Syndicate is often at odds with the Corporation is needs a military of some sorts to help fights its battles and to counter the threat of Enforcers. But rather than train people into soldiers the Syndicate would ‘turn’ people into soldiers by kidnapping them and reprogramming them and turning them into cybernetic organisms. So you would have elite forces of cyber-warriors (think the replicants in blade runner). They would be very tough, very efficient soldiers who would be strong enough to carry powerful weaponry. In terms of look i’m thinking tall muscular people but their appearance would be hidden by large black coats, punk/white hair, eyes/face replaced by bionics and them carrying large guns. They would have a strong second skin and enforced chest plates etc to make them more tough in combat. Not only would the Syndicate have humans but brokkrs and Judwans within their ranks (the Syndicate stole the secrets that led to ‘Wrath’). Also the Syndicate would hire the scum of the universe – mercenaries be it humans or those aliens so nasty they couldn’t make it into the Rebs!!!
…when I say brokkrs and Judwans I mean ‘reprogrammed’ and ‘altered’ versions. Literally the Syndicate would steal people/aliens from off the street and then change them into powerful soldiers/gangsters. This would lead to baddie brokkrs and baddie Judwans which would be interesting.
Smaller gangs may have a looser hierarchy and flexible troop type with low level gangers and less structure more mob than anything, but the more developed gangs like the future equivalent of saying the Yakuza would have a rigid hierarchy and discipline, with codes and ritual. What crime gangs offer is the variety with constraints, bit like the ‘Old’ Chaos armies they were always unique due to the varying mutations, over a thousand and so it meant that you had to be both creative and thoughtful about what you did.
Criminal gangs offer both a chance of a mix of figures for the ranges ‘always good’ and a challenge. It would fit with Dreadball Extreme. Some gangs would be like small corporations with a distribution and troop types that recruited Mercs and old soldiers. Smaller gangs offer more members due to poor troop types with maybe vets in there.
Reputations and attitudes of the gangs could offer opportunities for gang development in terms of shifting alliances and gear acquisition and all the dealings between games, so an rpg opportunity with possible gang take overs and new leaders emerging if gang leaders mes up and lose respect over time etc..
I think you guys need to do at least 2 new factions.Corporation (the regular unarmored, non-Enfriocer, human part) as well as Veer Myn. Or even make the Mars AttACKs Martians, via a transdimensional rift (or just a wrong turn after sightseeing at Venus…) an *officially unofficial* (or *unofficially official*?) playable faction. Plus some additional Battlezones would be great. These could even play off of the Mars AttACKs terrain.
One new faction, & fleshing out the first 6 a little more, plus a new Battlezone or two would be a nice 2nd DZ KS. But if you added the Corporation faction &/or Mars AttACKs,Martians plus a new DZ Battlezone or two & some new Mars AttACKs terrain, now that would be another epic Mantic KS!
I’ve already done rules for both the Humans and Martian factions from Mars Attacks in DZ, so that’s easy 🙂
& if you’re puting rats in, ya need to create a Cat People/Were Cat/Cat Alien faction!
And cheese-baited traps.
Already got cat aliens. Yndij.
Just reading back over these comments whilst having lunch and there are so many good ideas in here! I cant wait for this to get to kickstarter.
Talk about the other factions made me wonder, story wise, are we looking to keep the action centred around nexus psi (I would vote for this, I would love to see the story bottomed out over a number of campaign books for all involved factions). Are we moving to another planet in what the Asterias called the death arc (I think, sorry no books with me) or are we looking at another unknown region of plague breakout. I ask because I think, context depending, we can get a lot more mileage out of what we have.
If we stayed around nexus psi, not only could we look at other relics of whatever civilisation was here before the plague (experimental weapons, armour, general tech found at excavation sites / in labs / secure vaults). As well as scenarios / campaigns based around the identification and securing of said artefacts. But also at the shadier side of corporation life. Was it the Riker corporation that ‘won the planet’ as it were? what were they really after? leverage over the council of 7? After several years (no idea about timescale) all the small FTL stuff arrived and got set up now the big slow ships are catching up, merchant hulks carrying non essential’s, and you got it, veer-myn stowaways!
The Riker Corp. could be explored as a faction that incorporates colonial marine equivalents as their security forces (rules for which could be ported over to any number of scenarios / campaign uses) and also has their own brand of special forces mercs who look after all those tricky, sticky corporate catastrophes. With their own agenda the Riker Corp could have a whole suit of new missions, equipment etc. perhaps with non lethal gear they could focus on the capture and interrogation of members of the other factions (introducing a meta game mechanic where successfully extracted information leads to a small bonus I your next game against an opponent). Retrieval or extraction of personnel / equipment in ‘enemy territory’. Equipment could start looking at more experimental gear, stims, narcotics, mechanical enhancements (simple braces all the way to bionics) etc.
I always wanted to see some shady corporation trying to splice alien DNA into the humans, perhaps trying to introduce portal spinner like psychic powers, experiment on strains of the plague perhaps. Someone’s previous idea of cybernetic enhancement was also really exciting (the unarmed soldier surrounded by a flock of cybernetically controlled drones)
Perhaps the initiation of the deadzone quarantine is the curtain behind which the Co prosperity sphere carries out this kind of morally dubious activity?
The large ships could also be used as the setting for conflicts, large cargo holds with gantries and packing cases surrounded by rooms and corridors leading off who knows where. Before mentioned excavation sites could use exactly the same hard plastic gantry terrain sprues as well as scaffolding, plant machinery etc. In fact such terrain would help industrialise any of our set ups.
With only a quick look at motive, means etc of the existing corporation set up we can see a wealth of options for scenarios, missions equipment, terrain etc. where over half the work has been done already. What if we did the same for the other factions, Rebel Asterians that didn’t believe in the use of Cyphers or care for secrecy. Cyphers that had gained self awareness (as per the short story in the incursion book, the whole seeing the future thing could be great for justifying all kinds of odd missions). Brokker only forge father lists looking to reclaim past glory / resurrect their clan. Whether skewing these existing factions could be the result of different leader options or alternative troops choices that exclude other options (if you take this, you cant take that etc.) I don’t know.
Yup, lots of good ideas 🙂
I’m not writing the background story for this (and I haven’t seen it yet), so I can’t tell you what that’s about or where it’s set. I’m sure it’ll come along soon enough.
Several of your ideas would work on any setting, so wouldn’t have to stay on Nexus Psi.
As far as I know ( some of ronnies rabblings) was that their are many containment protocols and the nexus psi and plague forms 1 of them Contagion. There could be more for other thibgs such as a verrmyn infestation, zzor invasion forge father attack asterian incursion. So I would like to see the veer myn as centre stage bad guys in this campaign.
Yes I hope this is the idea : Deadzone created because of too much biohazard rats under the colony ^^ … and maybe other bugs !
Whilst I still really want to finish the plotline (if there is going to be one) on nexus psi I like the idea of operations in a different arena.
I’d love to unique commanders with their own preferences leading forces in the different area, the use being general x’s enforcers will be different to General y’s.
Mantic could get some great mileage on community events with a series of what if alternative history conflicts / campaigns.
Great news, yet another faction joins the pary! I would like to use this topic to post some of my wishes for this new faction and the big update. Me and my friend are expats in China and DZ is the game that brought us back to the hobby (GW once turning us away from it). Its been a soft landing, I thank Mantic and you for that!
First off, I hope this is not too repetitve or off topic. You have replied to many replies of similar content and I liked that you mentioned tweaking missions and balance. Here are our thoughts (I know we are just two players with their own interpretation of the game and rules).
We’ve been playing Plague, Enforces and Rebs at usually 70 points and these factions play different, which is really nice. However, they win in the same order and Plague and Enforcers switch places when increasing the number of points (our FF and Ast are on their way). This makes the game predictable having only a playerpool of two. We think the balance would lie in slightly adjusting the movement rules; effectively making it harder for Plague/brawlers to reach the enemy. We’re currently working on some house rules, its not like we have much better to do here ;). We’ve tried different terrain and alternating point levels, but feel that there should be a dependable balance anyway when changing the mentioned two variables within tolerable ranges.
As to adding models to one of these factions; Rebs are in need of it the most. Maybe a model that further improves the force as a whole like the drones do, keeping the diverse character of the force intact. We think the Rebs are overpriced.
A mission deck builder sounds interesting!
Move cards and move command actions can make stage 2s (or other things) move as fast as 5 cubes or more (mutation) a turn (1 out of 2 battles statistically). A stage 2 chews through battlelines. The only effective counter is a toughness negating gun (AP3 your experimental rules).
How about going from alert to pinned putting a counter and not laying down the model and going from pinned to supressed laying it down? It looks awkward when a large part of your models is on its bellies, bases up. This would limit that and adding feel to being really supressed.
First off, I think these elite rats could be presented as a pretty aggressive force that will use its speed and agility to help itself, but doesn’t flee as fast as people think. I’ve seen plenty rats in big cities (Bangkok especially) sneaking around humans unnoticed, sometimes within a meter, nibbling on street food. They are evil, clever, industrious creatures that know what they want. Being a race of an uncountable number I suspect a very unfair autocratic society to be in place. Thus a part of the DZ strike force could be part of an elite cast, whilst another part would be the poorest ratmen canon-fodder possible. This is where their industrious nature comes in; these rats form a perfect medium to deliver their latest destructive inventions. At the risk of blowing themselves up or after yet another dud. Rats in space, I bet they blew up the first moon they landed on. Ingame they should be the most numerous force but I think contrasting elite and poor will add even more to the uncountable feel.
Thanks Chris, all useful comment.
I agree that the Rebs are in most need of some help. They are the hardest of the forces to use well, by some distance. However, I don’t think it’s all that. Some tweaks and a new model or two should help them out.
I’m told that the Plague and the Enforcers are overpowered by a roughly equal number of people, which makes me think that they’re fairly close. A lot hangs on terrain with them because one wants lots and the other wants hardly any. Whichever one gets its way tends to do better.
The reason pinned works by lying the model down is twofold. Partly it’s because that’s what the trooper is doing, but also it avoids the need for a counter at this stage. You need to mark suppressed, but it happens less often. Reducing the counter count is a generally a good thing.
I like your appraisal of rats as “evil, clever, industrious creatures that know what they want.” An excellent summary.
I thought about one thing : there should be some rules to create scenery to avoid too much towers or to few walls for example. There is some advice to avoid 3×3 clear zones, but that should be more strongly written to make a well-balanced battlefield. Maybe with some dice rolls : how much height maximum, how many covers and so on.
Or maybe you want it totally free ^^
Shadowbreed could be implemented through cards like Mutations for the Plague.
Playing a Shadowbreed card allow to add 1 xxx Veer-myn model in the same cube that the one which the card was played on.
That’s a possibility. I think it needs to tie in with the whole sneaking about, sewer movement sort of thing. Not sure how yet.
But quantity of models should be limited to avoid giving too much easy targets to Kill missions.
While I love Shadowbreed in Project Pandora, I’m not sure it really belongs in a regular Deadzone mission, what with the forces supposed to be the “creme de la creme” of their faction and all that. How much would the ability cost, how greatly would it upset the apple cart of game balance and do they really need it?
I could see them get their own Veer-myn Nightcrawler “zombie” AI/Spawn deck though, for a Project Pandora ode.
“creme de la creme” : you say this in english ^^ ? like “c’est la vie” 😀
You’re right, not sure it’s a good gimmick for the classic game, but for a Zombie-like Veer-myn game mode, that could be the way they spawn.
Jake I hope you’ll look into that direction !
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I think you guys may be selling the game short by with the feeling that regular Corp troops are out due to this v=being about the elites responding to the DZ. First of all, people will want to play Corp troops in DZ! If they’ve got them for WP, why wouldn’t they want to use some of them for DZ? Space Hulk started out as just Terminators with mostly just Stormbolters vs Genestealers. It evolved greatly in scope with the expansions. Then there were the WD additions. & the Space Hulk Campaigns book. Why linit yourselves to just the initial storyline? Excluding this faction orthat faction seems counterproductive.
Besides, there’s been more than afew plausible ways of including Corporation troops into the plotline mentioned already.The remnants of the planets initial armed forces. Surlely a pocket or two of armed survivors is possible. A lot of sci-fi is made up of the initial survivors fighting to remain survivors! Plus the criminal element is pure genius. Why wouldn’t less legit, shadowy &/or otherwise non-standard human factions be drawn to a Deadzone?
In the initial response to a DZ, yes, I can see corps reacting with the purely cream of the crop, the Enforcers. *If at all possible^. But lesser corps or corps with no immediate Enforcer force available would still react. It’s not like they’ll care if their corp troopers go in there & get slaughtered. Risking a handful of regular human troopers is better than not trying to capitalize on whatever opportunities the DZ may offer. Surely a *lesser* response is better than no response, in the eyes of those who would seek to gain from a DZ!
Plus, after the initial response, regular troopers wouldmost likely be the backbone for holding the gains that the Enforcers have made. But as we can imagine, *holding* becomes surviving, capitalizing & generally fighting in no time at all. Enfocers wouldn’t *look over their shoulders* to keep an eye on their less elite compatriots. So in effect, the relief or bolstering force would become it’s own faction in the blink of an eye.
I’m not a corporation player or minis owner. I just don’t see any reason why they can’t be included in Deadzone as their own faction. The more the merrier I say. Variety, as you’ve espoused in different terms many times throughout these comments, is the spice of life!
I think I would be happy if a “Regular Grunt” Faction turned up in DZ. Maybe they need a name change so that they can be distanced from the regual corporation rank and file which would leave the fluff in tact that the council of seven would send the enforcers to enforcer any containment protocals. Maybe something along the lines of “The Remnant” and like many have said plenty of fiction revolves around the last remaining surviors.
Difficulties with this is to try and represent something different from the Rebs but this could be done through lots of survive missions and by limiting the race to human + possibly they could pickup some “Civillian esque” units
I’d like to see some of the survivors of this outbreak band together to try and survive The Plague, but I don’t know what would possess a group of civilians, say, to try and engage any of the other factions in a firefight other than they were in the way and there was no other way to avoid them. Pretty sure even one Enforcer would be enough to make even an armed civilian run for it, much less a unit of them.
I would like to see the nameless covered, though they do not have to be a faction unto themselves maybe a sub faction (this could be used for lots of alternative races/factions that are not developed enough to be a faction in there own right) that are a kind of generic mercenary that requires a commitment of at least 1 leader to include a limited amount of them in your list. I think this would be a great way of really exploring different aspects of the background and incorporating new play styles into the existing factions without making everyone the same or reducing the overall theme of a faction.
Robots, Drones and Mechs: Give us lots! Hugely disappointed this has not been explored in Warpath/Deadzone really. The core could be human based mechanics maybe in a sub faction form as I suggested above, this would keep the production costs down as it would offer up generic robotic allies that could be acquired as long as you include a ‘specialist/Rare’ technician (though you could just allow them with no limitations) that could be added to factions or as part of a engineer/operators purview. You could then expand the robots/drones with faction specific options which would provide the more thematic AI units.
Now the inclusion of the above ideas in some form with hard plastic multi part kits will 100% get me backing a new dead zone kickstarter, which otherwise I am ambivalent about overall. I will be assessing this one on the miniatures alone over game content/expansions and Hard Plastic sprues with options and extras are going to be critical for while I can work with restic, I find it really poor for conversions and I hate the lack of variations such fixed moulds produce for Skirmish/war gaming systems.
The Asterians are by far the most underdeveloped faction and one I would like to see filled out with more options. Perhaps some of the reckless and untraditional Kashavi (likely spelt wrong) from DBX, or maybe something else entirely. I really likely the initial Warpath back ground information on the Asterians though I was decidedly less impressed with the Japanese Honorific based back story that accompanied Deadzone (though I do quite like the idea of Shards being sown though out the Death Arc to be activated if the scourge returns), its a theme that has been done to death and beyond in both Sci-fi and fantasy in my opinion and personally I never found it that interesting to start with but of course that’s subjective to everyone. I would however enjoy some other areas of there society being explored a little more.
There’s a lot of room to expand the existing factions, which I would like to see explored though various new unit types or differing roles for already incorporated types of unit as has been mentioned above. While I love the idea of Vehicles I do not feel this Kickstarter is the place to start looking at them as to compete with other options in gaming they need to be Hard Plastic with plenty of modulation and I feel that’s way beyond the purview of the planned campaign. I also feel APC type units would be completely out of place within the context of Dead Zone games even on a large multi mat set up I just do not see them as anything but a rapid way of getting you squad killed in such a high terrain dense urban enviroment.
I would love some Hard plastic Corporation Soldiers, war zone veterans, field weapons and the like, as well as some options specific to Corporations invested in the Containment Area. I feel there is a huge amount that could be explored in this regard.
Finally regards the Veer Myn, I am of mixed feelings over this faction, especially in terms of concept and background. If they are done with a lot original themed character and a well though out and designed focus both in setting and mechanics they will be a top rate edition but if they are a Science Fiction adaptation of Skaven then I feel they would be underwhelming at best. I realise however that many in the community will want exactly that a Science Fiction version of Skaven both thematically and mechanically however and I would hazard a guess that this is something many players will have a fairly strong opinion about rather than sitting on the fence which does make the choices made in there development almost a lose, lose situation. Regardless I just hope they are really well thought out, with great models so I feel I must have them as it were.
Well that’s a few thoughts I had bouncing around my head…
Thanks for reading
Vehicles are likely to be something Mantic covers in a full-on Warpath Kickstarter, next year. That’s more the scale they’re appropriate in. Of course, once they make the models I’m sure people will want stats for them in DZ…
I’d like to see the DB robots’ military versions in DZ as well, and you never know. That will depend on how far through the list of “wants” we get. I suspect that we’ll do a little bit of new shiny toys for each faction as that will keep everything fresh, plus give us a chance to do some hard plastics all round.
Veer-myn aren’t the only lose/lose design element. Pretty much everything is wrong and broken if you ask around. Not being able to please all the people all the time is just business as usual, and the only reasonable approach I can think of is doing the best you can to make stuff cool. There will always be nay-sayers. Just go with the majority. And, when in doubt, make what you think is cool yourself. The enthusiasm will filter through the whole design 🙂
Oh, and one thing I’d love to see from the upcoming kickstarter is more options regarding the gaming matt.
the 2’x2′ mat is perfect for 2 player games but I feel it struggles with 3 or more players. I know we have rules for 2 mat games but when playing a 4 player games on two mats side by side feels more like two, two player games next to each other (I admit this can be mitigated with a dispersed deployment and the spacing out of objectives)
we have experimented with 3’x3′ spaces and have found they work really well for 3 or 4 player missions, two player games with higher point value forces or with some two player games that include a forward deployment or split force deployment. At the moment I am putting together some 1′ square tiles using worldworks games textures so I can have a modular network of roads (this however is taking some time as I have overcomplicated things with split level roads and pavement as usual!)
What I would love to see though is mantic adopt an almost print on demand like set up with say (for arguments sake) 6 different 3’x3′ pieces of artwork representing frozen, badlands, urban etc. battlefields. You could then order these from mantic as a 3’x3′ gaming mat, a 2’x2′ gaming mat or even a set of reversible 1′ sq tiles. We even have the clips now from dungeon saga that could hold the whole thing together.
The beauty of it that I can see is that the product is so reusable. the artwork could even be commissioned at a larger scale so the whole thing could be cropped and repackages to suit everything from the largest games of warpath down.
So how do you prevent two sides from getting an advantage with respect to objective and item location? Do you have some custom rules to cover that?
I’d maybe like to see something like the book that is happening for Dungeon Saga. Stats that include other models from Warpath, so people can add anything from their collection into the game. Nothing too balanced, but for fun.
Other than that, more scenery, more factions, more models.
As to regular Corporation troops not being suitable, not *elite* enough,for being a Deadzone faction all their own;
Excerpt from the Deadzone rulebook-
*Cut off from outside help, many planets will gradually slip even further into lawlessness & chaos, so it is important to resolve the situation as quickly as possible. This may include the use of normal corporation troops, though most such missions are given to the fanatically loyal Enforcers.*
MOST but not all DZ rectionary forces are Enforcers. Normal Corporation troops are not excluded from being sentinto a DZ though!
I think Corporation troops will only be downgraded Enforcers, you’ll have more models on the battlefield with less strength, I’m not sure this is a good thing.
I prefer to have another alien faction with specific gimmicks that make it unique.
@Blaster – not my text, and not what I was originally briefed was the case, hence my comments. Also, even if you do get the occasional group of Corporation fighting against Plague, I don’t think they’re going to hold out for any length of time. Just not convinced they add a great deal to the mix of armies we have already. Personally, I’d rather see something more different, like Pika says.
At the end of the day though, Mantic will decide what they want to do alongside the Veer-myn, not I. Your best bet would be to petition them during the KS in the comments. They do read these, and they do adapt to what people want 🙂
Personally I’m not opposed to Corporation as it’s own faction in Deadzone. Mostly cos I see Deadzone as a great excuse to use some of my existing Warpath minis in it, like when I was testing the Alpha Rules way back. It already has the three of the four Warpath 2.0 factions in it, and Veer-myn seem to be on their way next. I’d likely use Corporation in Deadzone for more of a “Survival horror” skirmish, cos that’s probably what their efforts versus the Plague would boil down to in the end. They’d likely end up being similar in survivability to the Rebs I’d think, although maybe with a different focus for their Mission Cards.
Yes, sort of “Before the Deadzone protocol” ^^
Corporation soldiers trying to resist to a Plague contagion, prequel to the disaster, sounds good… would can say that’s where the zombies come from !
Next one is Infestation, hope to see rats infestation and insectoid infestation !
I think I’ll be using my Z’zor like Space Persians rather than the Tyranid mindless locust swarm schtick. “Sorry, your way of life is flawed, join the Z’zor Empire or die.”
One of the things that attracted me to Deadzone was the fact that unlike some of the major competitor’s boardgames, you could get some use out of some of your existing miniatures from a different game in the same game universe as they were.
The other guys did some niche ones with hive gangs or witch hunting Inquisitors, completely ignoring the potential for a game where you might be able to use some from both in either game and the ability to expand on both using both games.
That’s why I think Corporation Marine miniatures and so forth should at least get a stat write up. Even if it’s like how you did Dreadball players in Nexus Psi.
I would love to see corp troops involved. If only so mantic can get an early start on their plastics (future gender ratios, not WWI’s please). And to have it as a bit of project Pandora tribute 🙂
As to their ‘eliteness’. Well if you don’t think they can carry a game on their own, how about this?
If in a narrative campaign it would consist of (hard plastic) rats overcoming (hard plastic) Corp troops from the unfortunate corporation concerned, no doubt weakened by civil insurrection etc, and then getting the retribution from the deadzone being declared and the (already exist hard plastic enforcers) turning up for rat o van.
For regular games if again you wanted lightly armed Corp public order units as opposed to credible heavy weapon toting player gangs, make them an AI/3rd player component complicating the operations of the other two players in a similar way to zombies.
And models? Set the funding bar higher, make it warpath hard plastic sprues. You will fund, we will be happier with models we can, well, model easily and the future cost of the expansion will be a lot less.
Really crowdfunding seems perfect for hard plastics and their ilk where you have high set up costs and low production costs!
As always, exactly what groups get funded will depend on how well the campaign goes. I’m sure we’ll do some hard plastics though 🙂
Here is the way I look at it. You are looking at adding Rats to DZ, but gave been somewhat opposed to putting the corporation troops in to dz because they aren’t as good. Yet they are good enought to bet the Rata in Project Pandora. So I’m confused. Are the corporation marines suppose to lose all the time in Project Pandora or are they strong enought to fight and beat the Rats? If so then they might not be the strongest factions alone then supplement them with fire power. And I would love to see the robots in DZ also as you poster earlier.
Can you look into expanding the psychic powers in the game? Possibly adding more models to the game with psychic abilities?
Tsudochan telekinetic leader and specialist types with (expensive?) Furon henchmen troopers. Maybe some less intimidating slave soldiers thrown in, be it from mind control or some form of brain washing or brain surgery. Maybe they could have the battle versions of the Dreadball Robots as less expensive troopers and even non merc jellyfish Chovar mystics.
Keen to see what a Crystallan faction could do esp when faced by a Forge Father opponent.
The rats sneaking around, and the older ‘Rats blip’ post still bouncing around brain. Payed a quick small game of Kryomek a while ago, and the same mechanic was seen their as well ‘Forgot about it’ but it showed how the idea of hidden movement blips create tension with some cards representing nothing, such a mechanic would allow the Rats to switch to counters as they move out of site and adding a few blanks to create a sense of were have the things gone type of sneaky.
Would also like to see Rat Kings, link as a way for the rats to get Psychic powers.
>Hidden (If the model is not in ‘Los’ they are represented by a marker)
>Scurry (long action. Move 2 cubes in any direction regardless of clear route. ‘Can’ Overwatch against this. If ends in cube with enemy model in will fight as if moved there normally.)
>Immue to Toxic
>Hit and Run, Play when you take a break off action, before you roll the dice. Model gets +1 dice to this test. (only gains Hit & Run if a single model is placed in a square. Once more than one Veer-Myn is is a square, they gain confidence, and loose the ability.)
> Hidden, Veer-myn are descended from rats i the distant path and like their fore-bearers they retai some of the rodent like habits and behaviours. One such is the marked ability to hide and make use of any cover to get about useen. To represent this Veer-myn are represented o the board with two markers. (one represents the Veer-myn and the other is blank) Once they move into LOS the marker is over turned. If the marker shows the Veer-myn symbol then it is replaced with the Veer-myn figure, and both markers are removed. If the wrong marker is turned the Spotter falls under the effect ‘Distract’ the same as if the Battle Card had been played, and only the blank marker is removed. Veer-myn markers and blank ones can move independently of each other; and are moved as normal during a Veer-myn players turn.
> Cornered – Any Veer-myn that are pinned in a fight automatically gains the Short Action – Get Mean!
This action immediately raises the model’s Aggression by one step along the scale, however it follows this path. — Suppressed > Pinned > Enraged > Break off.